Blind Defense?

[PokerBob]

CO is a TAG. Someting like 17/10/2.

Party 3/6 full.
Folds to CO who raises. Folds to PBob in BB with JJ. I 3-bet. CO caps.

Flop: A77r. PBob....???

[crunchy1]

I don't see a TAG showing down less than QQ here after putting in the PF cap. 99% of the time they only call your 3-bet. The times they put in the cap I've yet to see anything other than AA-QQ. I just don't see Villian making the cap PF with <= TT or an AK/AQ hand.

If you do then I think you can justify a call down but it's tough! I'm not sure you can justify betting at any point in the hand because if you do you're likely doing so with the intention of folding to a raise. What I wouldn't want to do is bet and fold. I think you need to decide on the flop whether you're going to showdown or not and then commit to your decision by check/calling down or check/folding the flop (which btw - I lead towards the check/fold on the flop w/o a more specific "non-stat" read).

I don't think I can bring myself to put any more bets into this hand than I absolutely have to.

[darker_days]

Given that he is a TAG i think that A pretty much wipes out any hands you were ahead of pf that he would cap with, although if he isnt a tricky TAG im tempted to check raise the flop and fold the turn UI to a 3-bet. (But that could also explain why im still at 2/4 - lol)

[Wada]

Do you think he would cap preflop with a hand like KQs or even 99? I think I would check call him down, your either way ahead or way behind.

[chief444]

That flop does sort of suck, since the A does make it unlikely he's holding any no-pair hand at this point. I do think the range of capping hands for a solid player includes more than the others are saying though. I normally cap in this situation with 88-TT, AJ, maybe ATs...depending of course on the opponent. Basically I just like a cap here with a wide range in a heads up blind battle to give me a chance to force the opponent to make a mistake. This hand is a good example.

That being said, I have serious doubts as to whether this hand is worth showing down or not. Sometimes I'll take a stab at it but I can't really argue against giving up early. Even against a wider range of capping hands you're not looking too good. But take this FWIW...this is an area of my game that is still far from solid.

[27offsooot]

I think that i'm leading the flop and folding to a raise/ folding the turn UI if he calls. I can see arguments for c/f though. I would likely be capping 99/1010, possibly KQ against a TAG blind three bet though, so i don't think it's definite that you're behind here, but it's pretty close.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I normally cap in this situation with 88-TT, AJ, maybe ATs...depending of course on the opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I'm stealing with this range against a TAG in the BB and get 3-bet (HU) I feel like I'm either WA/WB or even money. I feel like a TAG would be making this 3-bet with probably any ace or medium/small PP. It seems like 99% of the time I'm in a dominating/dominated situation or we're even money with a pair vs. 2-overcards.

Do you feel this way too? Is capping PF the best way to handle the situation?

[chief444]

TAG's 3-betting range should be pretty big here. And as I said I think the cap makes it more likely you'll force an incorrect flop or turn fold. I'm really not the best one to give advice on heads up play but certainly there's a lot to be said for keeping the initiative and showing strength (especially with a hand that may be best anyway or even money) as a lot of these situations don't go to showdown.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
CO is a TAG. Someting like 17/10/2.

Party 3/6 full.
Folds to CO who raises. Folds to PBob in BB with JJ. I 3-bet. CO caps.

Flop: A77r. PBob....???

[/ QUOTE ]

Results in white below.

<font color="white"> I bet, he raised, I folded. He showed me K5s /images/graemlins/grin.gif</font>

[chief444]

Bob,

I think in this situation if you never ever EVER again take the flop line of bet/fold you'll be better off. If I was going to continue I'd probably check/call the flop and reconsider on the turn if he bets again.

Chief

[27offsooot]

Didn't u say in your earlier post that u would possibly take a stab at it. How do u take a stab at it w/o betting? Expect him to open fold? When he raises, do u then call down or fold to a turn bet? I don't hate c/c, c/f b/c it's somewhat similar to the Nate 77 hand, but u need a good read on the opponent.

[chief444]

When I said take a stab at it I didn't mean to imply betting or raising. I meant check/call. What better hands fold? The only hand I would really like to see fold here is KQ. A lot of worse hands will bet when checked to though. And I think this flop bet gets raised way too often by way too many hands to make this line a good one. And the times he does fold you would probably still be better off check/calling.

[27offsooot]

good points. I like c/c better now, but do u c/f the turn?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
And I think this flop bet gets raised way too often by way too many hands to make this line a good one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more. I hate my line here. I either should have (a) decided I'm calling his ass down or (b) check-raise the flop and folded to any further aggression.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
good points. I like c/c better now, but do u c/f the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's close. And I don't honestly don't know. I guess just guess whether you're good here the 20% of the time you need to be and decide. I'd also consider that a lot of worse hands just check through the river. But then check/calling the turn but then folding the river doesn't make much sense unless you know the opponent gives up after the turn and would only bet the river as a value bet. I guess pretty much the same applies to the flop - turn. A lot of times I would actually just check/call down here. It's probably not losing me much if any on this hand and it can be good for Metagame considerations against someone who will likely notice.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see a TAG showing down less than QQ here after putting in the PF cap. 99% of the time they only call your 3-bet. The times they put in the cap I've yet to see anything other than AA-QQ. I just don't see Villian making the cap PF with &lt;= TT or an AK/AQ hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to read each opponent for how they play, and it may very well be true that many TAGs wouldn't raise here except with the hands you listed. But it's important to recognize that this is a really poor strategy, especially when you're heads-up against a TAG. Capping only with premium hands increases the likelihood that your opponent will fold when you wish he would call or raise, and it decreases the likelihood that you will induce an incorrect fold from your opponent.

If you are the CO here, you should be mixing up which hands you cap with in a heads-up situation like this. You can cap with a wider range of hands because you have position. I wouldn't cap with a hand like KJo, where I might easily make a dominated second-best hand. But capping here with T9s can be good, depending on your read of the opponent. I am assuming you're up against a TAG in the BB who's capable of folding post-flop and who generally plays pretty well.

In fact, if I don't have a lot of hands against this opponent, I'd actually be more inclined to cap with T9s than with AA. The deception value in the heads up pot is significant.

If a loose passive calling station has also called from the SB, then I'm definitely not capping T9s and I'm almost certainly capping AA, because I'm more likely to have to showdown the best hand and there's more of an edge to be exploited by the preflop raise.

I'm sure this is talked about elsewhere, but this is an important concept to understand. Since low-limit poker tends not to be about deception, it's worth remembering those times when deception is valuable.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Bob,

I think in this situation if you never ever EVER again take the flop line of bet/fold you'll be better off. If I was going to continue I'd probably check/call the flop and reconsider on the turn if he bets again.

Chief

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the spot where you use the relatively underused and mostly misunderstood check-call, bet line against a TAG.

Krishan

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure this is talked about elsewhere, but this is an important concept to understand. Since low-limit poker tends not to be about deception, it's worth remembering those times when deception is valuable.

[/ QUOTE ]

V Good post overall. I actually thought it was Chief's after i read it, then checked the name. FWIW, there was a recent article in 2+2 mag exactly on this topic.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the spot where you use the relatively underused and mostly misunderstood check-call, bet line against a TAG.


[/ QUOTE ]
I like that. Thanks Krishan.

[DMBFan23]

I find that when I absolutely, positively need to move someone off of a better hand on a scary board, check call check raise usually does it best. however, I don't do it often. am I likely to get a free showdown if he does have QQ/KK/99/TT? does he check behind the turn a lot when I call the flop? do his capping hands widen vastly in steal situations? depending on the answers to these questions (most often the answers are no, I've seen) I'll just check call him down

[DMBFan23]

krishan,

I like the c-call part, but I am not sure what value there is in a river bet, in this scenario, unless you bluff the river enough times that shania dictates that he will call with worse pairs and K high often enough to make this bet for value.

EDIT: please correct me if I'm wrong. learning is goot.

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]

This is the spot where you use the relatively underused and mostly misunderstood check-call, bet line against a TAG.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting line.

Is this the thinking?

If Hero bets the flop, a TAG opponent who capped pf, but then missed, will often semi-bluff raise the flop, as he knows that you might have missed too (and he can fold to a 3-bet). By check/calling the flop and betting the turn, Hero indicates he has a hand, so his opponent is less likely to semi-bluff raise the turn. Hero can safely fold to a turn 3-bet.

[sweetjazz]

That's probably where I got the idea from. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Actually, this topic is discussed from time to time in specific hand threads, but I think it's very easy for players, once they learn a "TAG formula" for winning, to be afraid to make such plays. It's easy to feel stupid capping with T9s, flopping top pair tens, bet the whole way and find ourselves called down by JJ. It's easy to forget that (1) we are going to lose a fair amount of money in this hand anyway even if we don't cap, (2) our opponent might have check folded (or better, bet/folded) AQ here, which we are happy with, (3) we might get paid off later when we have a strong hand against this opponent if he's at all observant.

It can be very hard to compute that, in the scenario from this hand, capping with T9s is a superior play to calling, while calling with AA instead of capping is also superior. And, of course, it can be very subtle to figure out when this principle applies and when it doesn't.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
krishan,

I like the c-call part, but I am not sure what value there is in a river bet, in this scenario, unless you bluff the river enough times that shania dictates that he will call with worse pairs and K high often enough to make this bet for value.

EDIT: please correct me if I'm wrong. learning is goot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't bet the river, you bet the turn.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is the spot where you use the relatively underused and mostly misunderstood check-call, bet line against a TAG.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting line.

Is this the thinking?

If Hero bets the flop, a TAG opponent who capped pf, but then missed, will often semi-bluff raise the flop, as he knows that you might have missed too (and he can fold to a 3-bet). By check/calling the flop and betting the turn, Hero indicates he has a hand, so his opponent is less likely to semi-bluff raise the turn. Hero can safely fold to a turn 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much. On the flop, Villian is getting 5-1 on his bluff. If Hero doesn't have an ace it is really tough for him to call. By calling the flop and leading the turn, a bluff becomes much more expensive (3-1). This means most hands you beat will fold (Which is okay) and you can fold to a raise much more safely on than on the flop.

Krishan

[chief444]

Krishan,

If called on the turn would you generally bet/fold the river as well, assuming a blank?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Krishan,

If called on the turn would you generally bet/fold the river as well, assuming a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends. Mostly your looking for your opponent to fold. If I have KK I bet. I haven't really though about what happens if you are raised on the river. I don't think it happens that often. With JJ I might check-call since QQ and KK might check behind. TT I might check-fold on occasion.

You also should consider if there was a flush draw on the flop.

Basically the only things you and Villian can have at that point are underpairs or draws/bluffs.
Krishan

[chief444]

Yeah, pretty much my thinking as well. I thought it was pretty close with JJ which is why I asked. Thanks again for the input.