Interesting 2-4 Hand

[Shaman]

2-4 blinds. I raise to 24 from 3 off the BB with 99. Tight opponent raises to 48 from mid-position. Button calls. I call.

Flop comes A95 offsuit. I check. Pre-flop reraiser bets 30. Button folds. I call.

Turn is a 5, giving me a fullhouse. I check. Pre-flop reraiser checks.

River is blank. I bet 80 and have 460 left. Pre-flop reraiser puts me all-in. He has me slightly covered.

What should I do?

[warlockjd]

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Tight opponent

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Muck, he has AA.

IMO, you should have bet the flop and got it all in then and lost your stack.

[muckyouraces]

call and pay off the aces if that is what he has. only two hands beat you

[hfrog355]

Agreed. If he's on AA, you're paying him off.

Is he just min-raising PF with AA?

[Shaman]

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Agreed. If he's on AA, you're paying him off.

Is he just min-raising PF with AA?

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He was min-RE-raising pre-flop. And overbet the river.

[THATWACOKID]

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Agreed. If he's on AA, you're paying him off.

Is he just min-raising PF with AA?

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He was min-RE-raising pre-flop. And overbet the river.

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I think frog realizes this. He is asking will he reraise the min with aces, or have you seen him do it before?

[THATWACOKID]

I think this depends on how well you know your opponent. If he reraises with A-K pre then it obviously makes this a tougher fold on the river. If he only reraises with premium pairs I would lead the flop and go from there.

[Shaman]

I had a very loose image at this point, running my 200 into 600 in less than 26 hands with lots of pre-flop raises and obvious flop steals, along with some showdowns. I figured he was just trying to isolate me. I put him on anywhere from JJ and AJ to KK or AA. On the river, I had narrowed him to AJ up to AA.

[arod15]

Call and prey he doesnt have AA and hopefully he has AK. Maybe bet more on the flop and river so you can see where your at.

[hfrog355]

I'm pretty sure you still call here...he's not re-raising (or re-re-re-whatever-raising) PF with 55, so in reality there's only one hand he has that is beating you. If there's anyway he's on something strong other than AA (AK, AQs, AJs...) this is a really rough laydown.

I've got a feeling you called this, but I could always be wrong. How'd it turn out?

[Slappz]

I think theres a good enough chance that he has AK that you have to call this bet. There wasn't much action on any street so he might think he's way ahead with just two pair. If hes got AA, then remember how he played it for next time.

[Effie]

If you're mucking this hand, there's an open invitation for you to sit at my home game. Call, if you lose, that's life.

[Matt Flynn]

head down calling there is not far off optimal if opponent will bet a range of hands. however:

1. there are a lot of players who don't have it in them to push on a bluff.
2. there are a lot of players who would never go in there with two pair.
3. i would take my time deciding if he's got it. nothing says you have to call.

matt

[aggie]

Matt, since i respect you more than just about any other poster here, i've gotta poke fun at this:

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3. i would take my time deciding if he's got it. nothing says you have to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't this one seems a little obvious?...I don't think OP would have posted this hand if he felt like he "had to call"....

[Shaman]

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i would take my time deciding if he's got it. nothing says you have to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I called in a heartbeat. He showed pocket Aces.

Even if I had taken the priviledge to take time calling (instead of doing it in a heartbeat), I probably would have called anyway. But if there was something in my play worth improving it would be that I should have taken the time deciding if he indeed had it. I was, afterall, last to act during the last betting round.

[psuasskicker]

Muck, he has AA.

Holy weak-tight Batman! Seriously, you think AA plays it this way? Dramatically underbets the pot, then checks behind a cold call on the turn?

If someone has AA and outplays me this way, he's getting paid off. No way am I mucking this hand...it's an insta-call unless I've got an unbelievable read. I mean he's gotta be shaking like a leaf here.

I called in a heartbeat. He showed pocket Aces.

He's unbelievably lucky to get paid off with that hand, and frankly IMO pretty stupid to have played it that way. First off, he'll never get action again after that move. Secondly, the ONLY way he gets paid there is if you have a monster hand with him. There's 99, and that's about it, cause what are you raising with that has a five in it unless you're mixing it up? Every hand other than 99 that you'd raise with he'd either force you to lay down, or get beat if you happened to pop it with 55.

99.9% of the time he wins $78 with his second nut Aces full. I'm happy to pay him off the rest of the time. He did an excellent job minimizing his win potential with this hand...he just got lucky that you were in with a huge one as well.

- C -

[neon]

Seems like just about every time I see a min-reraise preflop these days, it's AA.

I agree w/ PSU that villain played the hand terribly, in that he only gets paid off by 99, A9 or A5 (neither of which are in there in the first place), and maaaaybe AK, and also b/c he really narrowed down his hand range w/ the combination of the min-reraise preflop and the river push, imo. What does a tight player play this way? After the min-reraise preflop, I personally give him AA or KK, but I suppose you could throw in QQ and maybe JJ and probably AK. After hero calls villain's flop bet and leads the river, villain has to know that hero has at least an ace here, so I highly doubt he's bluffing w/ KK or less, unless he's a rather peculiar breed of tight player. I really doubt he would push w/ AK, either, although I'd be willing to give him credit for that before a whiffed big pair.

So basically, I give villain either AA or maybe AK here. Not saying that this isn't a really tough fold here, or that in the heat of battle, I wouldn't have looked him up, too, as I probably would have. But from the safety of my office chair, I can't see any other hand that a tight villain plays this way aside from rockets.

[flawless_victory]

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Tight opponent

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Muck, he has AA.
.

[/ QUOTE ]this river fold would not even be that tough for me... kinda funny how the guy could be play his hand so incredibly bad that ppl could prob lay down second full correctly...

[radioheadfan]

[ QUOTE ]
2-4 blinds. I raise to 24 from 3 off the BB with 99. Tight opponent raises to 48 from mid-position. Button calls. I call.

Flop comes A95 offsuit. I check. Pre-flop reraiser bets 30. Button folds. I call.

Turn is a 5, giving me a fullhouse. I check. Pre-flop reraiser checks.

River is blank. I bet 80 and have 460 left. Pre-flop reraiser puts me all-in. He has me slightly covered.

What should I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

So many fish I play with would have taken this identical line. He minreraises to keep everyone in ("I have AA, yeaeah!"), cuz that's what fish do. I see it all the time. He throws that little weak bet in on the flop to make you believe he doesn't have that great a hand. He checks the turn cuz's he's got a lock hand (he doesn't fear getting sucked out on now). On the river he pushes after your $80 bet cuz he's got aces full (and expects to get paid off by your 5 or A or whatever - fish don't think about what will pay them off)

Yeah it's a bad line, and yeah it's hard fold nines full here, but this line reeks of pocket aces man...from the minreraise preflop to the small flop bet to the turn check to the river push. No other hand really makes sense.

AK bets bigger on the flop. AK bets the turn. AK doesn't push the river after getting led into on the river with a pair on the board.

Tough fold but a makeable one in my opinion.

[neon]

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Tight opponent

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Muck, he has AA.
.

[/ QUOTE ]this river fold would not even be that tough for me... kinda funny how the guy could be play his hand so incredibly bad that ppl could prob lay down second full correctly...

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, so I was trying to be nice in my post. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I'm still not sure I would make this laydown in the heat of the moment, as I have a tendency to look people up too often sometimes - even if I'm pretty sure I'm beat - if the way a villain played a hand just doesn't feel right to me.

That said, given the fact that villain is a tight player, I think this is aces full almost every time.

The funny thing is, this hand would be much more interesting if we were playing against a creative LAG (I suppose that would almost always be the case, however), because this is the exact line that most bad, tight players will take every time. Preflop, min-reraise; flop top set, bet small not wanting to scare anyone away; turn aces full, check behind; raise all in on the river. This is a line that I've seen more than one tricky, aggro player take w/ KK, QQ, and 42o on a board like this and this action.

[bobneptune]

hello shaman,

sometimes we make things more difficult than the have to be.

i think there is only one question to answer here and everything else flows from that: pre flop, what hands does a real tight player in middle position re-raise a 6X's BB raise, with still 4-5 active players to be heard from who could still go over the top of him ???

i think pretty much AA or KK.

then on an A,9,5 flop with no straight or flushes he bets 30 bucks ??? isn't that a little too weird ???

you have an aggressive table persona and were the origonal raiser and you check the flop ??? wouldn't you call that an unusual play in the eyes of the tight player when there was no obvious free card to be had ??? that certainly reeks of a slowplay, and in this case the villain knows you don't have aces.

i think this illustrates brunson's philosophy of playing sets relatively fast. it stays within your agressive persona. your opponents expect you to bet when you raise pre-flop. when you don't it send up smoke signals. the bet also gives you information. had you bet out a pot sized bet on the flop and the villain either called or went over the top, you would have him squarely on top set. it would have saved you 2/3rds of your stack. if he was on KK, with an EP raiser betting the pot with an overcard on the flop, he certainly has to consider folding.

in general, excluding a rare machivellian player and especially with a tight player, a person's bets mean exactly what they are. a real tight player re raising a 6X's the BB raise implies a big pair. the weird bet on the flop says trap. put the 2 together and you get trouble for your nines.