dfscott HU example

[dfscott]

Edit: this is per curtains' request in the other thread, but anyone can feel free to comment.

Here's a HU game I think I played pretty poorly, but I'm really not sure what to do differently. This is pretty typical of my HU battles, but as you can tell, I got a little frustrated at the end. Should I be pushing the J3o?

#Game No : 2030370293
***** Hand History for Game 2030370293 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:35:17 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5300 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2700 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 2h 7c ]
JDRIFE: gg
dfscott1: gg
dfscott1 folds.
deadmoneyNJ shows [ 7s, 3c ] high card seven.
deadmoneyNJ wins 900 chips from the main pot with high card seven.
Game #2030371658 starts.

#Game No : 2030371658
***** Hand History for Game 2030371658 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:35:30 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5000 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $3000 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 9c 7h ]
dfscott1: I had 72o /images/graemlins/smile.gif
deadmoneyNJ calls [300].
dfscott1 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kd, 4d, Qd ]
deadmoneyNJ: lol
dfscott1 bets [600].
deadmoneyNJ folds.
dfscott1 does not show cards.
dfscott1 wins 1800 chips
Game #2030373795 starts.

#Game No : 2030373795
***** Hand History for Game 2030373795 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:35:52 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5600 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2400 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 3s 8h ]
dfscott1 folds.
deadmoneyNJ does not show cards.
deadmoneyNJ wins 900 chips
Game #2030374973 starts.

#Game No : 2030374973
***** Hand History for Game 2030374973 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:36:03 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5300 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2700 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ Tc 2d ]
deadmoneyNJ folds.
dfscott1 does not show cards.
dfscott1 wins 900 chips
Game #2030375858 starts.

#Game No : 2030375858
***** Hand History for Game 2030375858 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:36:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5600 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2400 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 3s Jc ]
dfscott1 folds.
deadmoneyNJ shows [ 5s, 7d ] high card seven.
deadmoneyNJ wins 900 chips from the main pot with high card seven.
Game #2030377365 starts.

#Game No : 2030377365
***** Hand History for Game 2030377365 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:36:26 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5300 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2700 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 3c Jh ]
deadmoneyNJ calls [300].
dfscott1 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, Tc, 4c ]
dfscott1 bets [600].
deadmoneyNJ folds.
dfscott1 does not show cards.
dfscott1 wins 1800 chips
Game #2030379228 starts.

#Game No : 2030379228
***** Hand History for Game 2030379228 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:36:44 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5900 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2100 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 3h Jc ]
dfscott1 folds.
deadmoneyNJ shows [ 8s, 4s ] high card eight.
deadmoneyNJ wins 900 chips from the main pot with high card eight.
Game #2030381058 starts.

#Game No : 2030381058
***** Hand History for Game 2030381058 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:37:01 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5600 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2400 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 9h 6s ]
deadmoneyNJ folds.
dfscott1 does not show cards.
dfscott1 wins 900 chips
Game #2030382070 starts.

#Game No : 2030382070
***** Hand History for Game 2030382070 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:37:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5900 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2100 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 2c 6s ]
dfscott1 raises [900].
deadmoneyNJ calls [600].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 3h, Ts ]
deadmoneyNJ is all-In [900]
dfscott1 calls [900].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
deadmoneyNJ shows [ 8c, Td ] two pairs, tens and threes.
dfscott1 shows [ 2c, 6s ] a pair of threes.
deadmoneyNJ wins 4200 chips from the main pot with two pairs, tens and threes.
Game #2030384496 starts.

#Game No : 2030384496
***** Hand History for Game 2030384496 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:37:35 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $3800 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $4200 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ Qs Jc ]
deadmoneyNJ calls [300].
dfscott1 is all-In [3200]
deadmoneyNJ folds.
dfscott1 does not show cards.
dfscott1 wins 4400 chips
Game #2030386602 starts.

#Game No : 2030386602
***** Hand History for Game 2030386602 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:37:55 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $4400 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $3600 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 7s 3h ]
dfscott1 folds.
deadmoneyNJ does not show cards.
deadmoneyNJ wins 900 chips
Game #2030387916 starts.

#Game No : 2030387916
***** Hand History for Game 2030387916 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:38:08 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $4100 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $3900 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 9s 8h ]
deadmoneyNJ raises [900].
dfscott1 folds.
deadmoneyNJ does not show cards.
deadmoneyNJ wins 1800 chips
Game #2030389229 starts.

#Game No : 2030389229
***** Hand History for Game 2030389229 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:38:20 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $3500 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $4500 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ Kd Jh ]
dfscott1 is all-In [3200]
deadmoneyNJ folds.
dfscott1 does not show cards.
dfscott1 wins 4100 chips
Game #2030390314 starts.

#Game No : 2030390314
***** Hand History for Game 2030390314 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:38:31 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $4100 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $3900 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 2d 6h ]
deadmoneyNJ calls [300].
dfscott1 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 7h, 4s ]
dfscott1 checks.
deadmoneyNJ checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
dfscott1 checks.
deadmoneyNJ bets [1200].
dfscott1 folds.
deadmoneyNJ does not show cards.
deadmoneyNJ wins 2400 chips
Game #2030392597 starts.

#Game No : 2030392597
***** Hand History for Game 2030392597 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:38:53 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $3500 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $4500 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ Qh 9h ]
dfscott1 is all-In [3200]
deadmoneyNJ folds.
dfscott1 does not show cards.
dfscott1 wins 4100 chips
Game #2030393850 starts.

#Game No : 2030393850
***** Hand History for Game 2030393850 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:39:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $4100 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $3900 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 7s 4d ]
deadmoneyNJ folds.
dfscott1 does not show cards.
dfscott1 wins 900 chips
Game #2030394727 starts.

#Game No : 2030394727
***** Hand History for Game 2030394727 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:39:13 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $4400 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $3600 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 8h 2s ]
dfscott1 is all-In [4100]
deadmoneyNJ is all-In [3000]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 9d, Jd ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
dfscott1 shows [ 8h, 2s ] two pairs, jacks and eights.
deadmoneyNJ shows [ Jh, Qs ] a full house, Jacks full of queens.
dfscott1 wins 800 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, jacks and eights.
deadmoneyNJ wins 7200 chips from the main pot with a full house, Jacks full of queens.
lol
Game #2030396244 starts.

#Game No : 2030396244
***** Hand History for Game 2030396244 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:39:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $800 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $7200 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 9c 8d ]
deadmoneyNJ raises [900].
dfscott1 is all-In [200]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ah, Jh, 3h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]
deadmoneyNJ shows [ 7s, As ] two pairs, aces and threes.
dfscott1 shows [ 9c, 8d ] a pair of threes.
deadmoneyNJ wins 400 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and threes.
deadmoneyNJ wins 1600 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and threes.
dfscott1 finished in second place and won $90.
gg
dfscott1 has left the table.
Congratulations,deadmoneyNJ! You won $150.
gg
deadmoneyNJ has left the table.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
#Game No : 2030379228
***** Hand History for Game 2030379228 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:36:44 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5900 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2100 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 3h Jc ]
dfscott1 folds.
deadmoneyNJ shows [ 8s, 4s ] high card eight.
deadmoneyNJ wins 900 chips from the main pot with high card eight.
Game #2030381058 starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Push. You've been folding a bunch, he will respect it.

[ QUOTE ]
#Game No : 2030382070
***** Hand History for Game 2030382070 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:37:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5900 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2100 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 2c 6s ]
dfscott1 raises [900].
deadmoneyNJ calls [600].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 3h, Ts ]
deadmoneyNJ is all-In [900]
dfscott1 calls [900].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
deadmoneyNJ shows [ 8c, Td ] two pairs, tens and threes.
dfscott1 shows [ 2c, 6s ] a pair of threes.
deadmoneyNJ wins 4200 chips from the main pot with two pairs, tens and threes.
Game #2030384496 starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop. If you don't do that, fold on the flop. You have 6 high.

[BDarch]

[ QUOTE ]
[#Game No : 2030382070
***** Hand History for Game 2030382070 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:37:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5900 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2100 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 2c 6s ]
dfscott1 raises [900].
deadmoneyNJ calls [600].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 3h, Ts ]
deadmoneyNJ is all-In [900]
dfscott1 calls [900].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
deadmoneyNJ shows [ 8c, Td ] two pairs, tens and threes.
dfscott1 shows [ 2c, 6s ] a pair of threes.
deadmoneyNJ wins 4200 chips from the main pot with two pairs, tens and threes.
Game #2030384496 starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

idk what you were thinking on this one, The raise preflop is ok becasue you have been folding so much he may interpert it as a monster but why would you call on the flop?

EDIT: o no i lost my avatar!

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[#Game No : 2030382070
***** Hand History for Game 2030382070 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:37:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $5900 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $2100 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 2c 6s ]
dfscott1 raises [900].
deadmoneyNJ calls [600].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 3h, Ts ]
deadmoneyNJ is all-In [900]
dfscott1 calls [900].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
deadmoneyNJ shows [ 8c, Td ] two pairs, tens and threes.
dfscott1 shows [ 2c, 6s ] a pair of threes.
deadmoneyNJ wins 4200 chips from the main pot with two pairs, tens and threes.
Game #2030384496 starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

idk what you were thinking on this one, The raise preflop is ok becasue you have been folding so much he may interpert it as a monster but why would you call on the flop?

EDIT: o no i lost my avatar!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this one was really dumb. I was thinking he probably had nothing. Of course, I had less than nothing.

[Benholio]

Pushing with 6-2 >>> min-raise with 6-2. Push (or 3xBB) seems to be your standard (which is good), why change it now of all times?

[curtains]

Ok first off, once the blinds are 300-600 you cannot be min raising, its completely absurd. If you want to play 62 there you must move allin. Of course you should also move allin with the J3o from the SB, this is the whole point of the K+S charts, to prove that folding is wrong. You have the information right in front of you, yet you choose to ignore it. Folding the J3o is flat out terrible IMO.

It was clear the guy was playing tight preflop and was not going to call you with some random BS, so I would have been moving allin with some random cards at some point a lot sooner than you chose to. (Most notably hand 3 with 83o, right after you folded the previous hand, thus showing that you arent a giant bully)

[ QUOTE ]

#Game No : 2030390314
***** Hand History for Game 2030390314 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12098528 Level:9 Blinds(300/600) - Tuesday, May 10, 22:38:31 EDT 2005
Table Table 11279 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: dfscott1 ( $4100 )
Seat 8: deadmoneyNJ ( $3900 )
Trny:12098528 Level:9
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott1 [ 2d 6h ]
deadmoneyNJ calls [300].
dfscott1 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 7h, 4s ]
dfscott1 checks.
deadmoneyNJ checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
dfscott1 checks.
deadmoneyNJ bets [1200].
dfscott1 folds.
deadmoneyNJ does not show cards.
deadmoneyNJ wins 2400 chips
Game #2030392597 starts.



[/ QUOTE ]

I know you've been playing aggressively postflop, but your opponent has also been playing quite passively. He checked the flop and the queen paired. Unless I really felt like they were fed up with me, I'd take a stab here most of the time. The worst hand though is folding the J3o from the SB earlier when your opponent has only 3.5x the BB. These little mistakes should cost you over the long run.

Probably there were some times where you could have pushed after your opponent limped from the SB too....maybe with the J3o, or the 97o, although don't just do this every single time as some people on this board suggest.

[curtains]

Anyway I want to emphasize how big a mistake I think folding hands like J3o there are. If you continuously do this with similar hands and situations, it should really hurt your results. Jack high is a lot better than you think when the blinds get to 300-600 with 8k in play.

[octaveshift]

If I could be so bold.... As an experiment, the next time you get HU, I think you should raise from the button every time, and see how it works for you.

Do it every time. See what happens.

At the start of this HH you have the chip lead, but you aren't using it. (I know the blinds are climbing fast, but I think it's a mistake to be folding so much. IMO your stack is deep enough to raise without a push.)

Make the villain decide if he wants to call half his stack off with 73o! If not, take his blind and continue to chip away. Put him to the test. Keep him on the defensive.

Now, someone please post telling me I am an idiot.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
but your opponent has also been playing quite passively. He checked the flop and the queen paired. Unless I really felt like they were fed up with me, I'd take a stab here most of the time. The worst hand though is folding the J3o from the SB earlier when your opponent has only 3.5x the BB. These little mistakes should cost you over the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is exactly what I was thinking as I read it through.

I think that you need to play aggressive pf because if you have any fold equity (which you did against a weak opponent like this). He really does not have to fold many times before taking down the 900 chips already in the pot is extreemly profitable

oh yeah, and I would fold the 63o hand preflop since you raised the hand before. The only time I am playing this hand is if I have gotten total junk several hands in a row and haven't made a move in a while. Also some players (myself included) will sometimes interpret a mini raise as strong, but you haven't been playing very aggressive so far and this guy is weak so a push would be better if you are going to play it

[curtains]

Well you all need to simply KNOW the K+S chart's. Theyve been posted on this forum many times before, and to fold a hand when its clear +EV even when the hand is turned face up, is inexcusable. You can simply look at it while you are playing if you don't know it.

Forget about the ideas of moving allin every single time as soon as it's heads up. Poker is not that simplistic. Against some opponent's it may seem correct, but most people will adjust if youve moved allin 2-3 hands in a row, it's just human nature.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok first off, once the blinds are 300-600 you cannot be min raising, its completely absurd. If you want to play 62 there you must move allin. Of course you should also move allin with the J3o from the SB, this is the whole point of the K+S charts, to prove that folding is wrong. You have the information right in front of you, yet you choose to ignore it. Folding the J3o is flat out terrible IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I used to keep a spreadsheet up while I was playing with the K+S chart on it. It would calculate push/fold based on my current stack, etc. I decided that it was borderline cheating, and got rid of it.

However, you're right that I shouldn't have dumped it completely -- I should just memorize it and I'd have the same info.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway I want to emphasize how big a mistake I think folding hands like J3o there are. If you continuously do this with similar hands and situations, it should really hurt your results. Jack high is a lot better than you think when the blinds get to 300-600 with 8k in play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my big mistake. I was of the opinion that with Q7 being the middle hand, J3 must be below average. However, of course that's only if I'm guaranteed that I'm getting a call every time.

Thanks for the analysis/feedback -- I think the light has finally come on.

[curtains]

df, you realize that if you ARE called every single time, pushing is +EV, which makes this fold really bad. The dead money is so important to the math when the blinds are high

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]

df, you realize that if you ARE called every single time, pushing is +EV, which makes this fold really bad. The dead money is so important to the math when the blinds are high

[/ QUOTE ]

I see now -- because I'm can get more than twice my bet due to the dead money.

I'm not sure why it took me so long to figure this out - I'm usually good at this math stuff. It's ironic, since I remember reading that most people don't push enough, but I always felt like I was playing competent players. Now I realize that it was because I was one of those people that didn't push enough!

It was very dark in here, but I think I see another light coming on. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[curtains]

Anyway post a few more headsup+3 way battles. They are usually easier to learn to play well because there are many less factors involved than in bubble type situations. So often you can prove that pushing is correct even if your opponent knows your hand, which makes it pretty easy to play well.

[microbet]

This is not a question about whether J3o is a good push here. Just about using the K+S charts.

dfscott folded J3o a couple of times when the blinds were 300/600. One time the stacks were 5600:2400 and the other time they were 5900:2100.

The K+S number for J3o is 7.915. If I understand correctly, that means it is a push HU, when you are in SB, and BB plays perfectly EV-wise, and you expose your hand, when either player has a stack < 7.915 x the SB. Is that right?

Then the first example wouldn't be a K+S push, but the second one would.

Again, this is only a question about using the chart, not about a push without exposing your cards.

[curtains]

No, you are supposed to divide the number in half and thats how many xBB should be at stake AFTER posting. So after posting you are basically risking 1800, which is 3x the BB which makes it a very clear allin.

The reason you divide in half is because the problem is assuming blinds of 1-2. 7.8 means that if the blinds were 100-200 you would move allin if you have 780 left after posting 100 chips and if called by all hands getting the odds to call, it would be a breakeven move.

Fortunately the usage of the 1-2 blinds makes the chart easy to use, as you can simply take the number on the left, divide it and half and then if you have that many times the BB you know to push. Incredible how this unbelievably useful tool is just sitting there and everyone is not taking full advantage of it!

[curtains]

Also the chart isnt as relevant once the SB calls as you their hand has been defined somewhat, meaning they are sometimes more likely to hold a better than average hand. Note that I still might move allin in that example however, although allin in the first example is simply indisputable.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway post a few more headsup+3 way battles. They are usually easier to learn to play well because there are many less factors involved than in bubble type situations. So often you can prove that pushing is correct even if your opponent knows your hand, which makes it pretty easy to play well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll try and dig some out tomorrow. Unfortunately, I've been on a rough run at Party and been bubbling a lot -- all my money's coming from the PS 27s these days, and the HU battles there are a bit different (having to play post-flop and all that).

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a question about whether J3o is a good push here. Just about using the K+S charts.

dfscott folded J3o a couple of times when the blinds were 300/600. One time the stacks were 5600:2400 and the other time they were 5900:2100.

The K+S number for J3o is 7.915. If I understand correctly, that means it is a push HU, when you are in SB, and BB plays perfectly EV-wise, and you expose your hand, when either player has a stack < 7.915 x the SB. Is that right?

Then the first example wouldn't be a K+S push, but the second one would.

Again, this is only a question about using the chart, not about a push without exposing your cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh you are right, you can use it to calculate via the small blind, but somehow I find calculating with the BB much easier. Anyway, the noly stack that matters is the small stack, not the big one in these situations. If one player has 5900 and the other has 2100, then its 7x the SB. aka 3.5x the BB. Thinking of it in terms of BB is much more useful for me since I've expanded the chart a few positions (button, cutoff, 2 off button etc), and you can imagine how annoying it would be if I was calculating in multiples of the small blind.

[microbet]

Thanks

[curtains]

btw for proof you can just plug the hand into eastbays program and I believe its something like +.4 EV for pushing even if BB calls any 2. +.4 is very signifigant with such high blinds.

[microbet]

Yeah, thanks. It took me a while to understand why I was dividing the KS number by two and multiplying the SB by two, but I worked it out.

So these are the no-duh pushes from the SB, but they also seem like about what I push. Should I be pushing more since they can't see my cards?

Now that I look at the chart again I think I'll fix it to by multiples of the BB - that's the way I/everyone measures bets and stacks.

edit: eh, that question is too hard to answer without seeing what I push. I'm not too worried about it really, but I will certainly make sure I am pushing where it is a K+S push.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]

Well you all need to simply KNOW the K+S chart's

[/ QUOTE ]
sorry, did a search and couldn't find much on them other than this thread, link?

[microbet]

It was hard to find because there were errors in the chart in the first thread that it came up and in the first shadow post about it, the web page referenced had been taken down.

here it is (http://www.decf.berkeley.edu/~chubukov/rankings.html) Save the page in case that site comes down.

[curtains]

Yeah, even if you had a bit more than 3.5x the BB or whatever the number is for J4, its almost always a push because your opponents will fold many hands better than J4. (like J6, Q2 etc etc). However it's brainlessly easy when you actually fulfill the K+S requirements.

In general you shuold usually almost always lean towards pushing if the number is close to your stack and the blinds are high, because without being able to see your cards your opponents will nearly always fold too many hands.

[curtains]

btw when its a very slight advantage fopr pushing....for example something like blinds of 250-500 with K2o on the button and both players having 5k in chips, it may be correct to just call against some opponents, as you may find that your EV by doing this and simply betting any flop is higher than pushing.

However I'd save this for only those situations that are VERY close, as if you play like this and your opponent starts betting every flop, or raising preflop everytime you limp, then you are the one being taken advantage of, and I'd rather not allow my opponent any chance to exploit my play.

[Newt_Buggs]

thanks for the link, i remember running accross this when I first started playing SnGs and not being able to figure it out.

I don't mean to hijack your thread df, but quick question. Does the stack size work the same way when you are the short stack? ex:
blinds are 250/500 and you are the button with 1500 before posting and you are holding 6,2o which the chart values around 2. Does this mean pushing this is about a break even play? (assuming he always calls)

[curtains]

No this is -EV. I believe that if the number says 2, you would need to have 500 chips AFTER posting for it to be breakeven. Don't forget to divide that number in half to get the number of BB's you need in your stack after posting.

[Degen]

you play too tight dude, with blinds of 300/600 you have to push every small blind....2 7, 3 5, K J..whatever...he was playing too tight too.


Andre

[bennies]

Thanks for explaining the chart, it is very informative. Just to be sure I fully understand, an example:

Heads up, blinds at 50/100.
Hero has 2400 chips in SB and is dealt KJo. Push?

The K+S (abbreviation of what?) number for KJo is 50, so Hero should push becase because he has less than 25* bb, right?

Thanks, later...

[curtains]

Well when you have so many chips other options such as raising to 250-400 may be preferable. The point is that the chart proves that FOLDING is incorrect. However the higher the number is, the more likely that in between raises are correct. However if its less than 20, USUALLY its best to just move allin.