I got caught pushing trash, sucked out, but what now? FE is gone.

[Karak567]

I was a shorty and I pushed 92os from the SB into AK in the BB and sucked out.

But now when it is folded to me in the SB again, do I need to REALLY tighten up, as this guy knows I am pushing trash now?

What do I do when my FE is shot?

[Blarg]

Doesn't matter, a lot of times.

What does matter is that you tell what the blinds are, how many people are on the table, and the stack sizes are before anyone can attempt to give a serious answer.

[Karak567]

This is just a generalized question about how to handle my table image when I have been seen pushing trash. In any push any two situation (folded to me in the SB and i have less than 10x BB), but I have trash... do I still push any two?

[pergesu]

Nah, you don't need to tighten up a whole lot. A little is good, because you'll probably get calls all the way down through Qx, JT-J9, etc. But the main factor in an opponent's decision to call is his own cards. That's why you'll see someone fold getting 4-1 on a call.

May wanna tighten up against AK dude though. He's likely to call you out of spite at some point.

[the shadow]

[ QUOTE ]
What do I do when my FE is shot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take advantage of the situation.

Wait til you get a good hand and push. Hope someone has a hand and thinks you're full of it. Pray karma sits out another hand before it's payback time for your own suckout.

Ideally, before you push, you've minraised some trash hand and folded if you've been reraised. That way the villian may think that you're still playing trash and that you think you need to push to get some FE.

YMMV

[durron597]

I would tighten up *slightly*. So if the blinds were the correct size to be pushing any two (i.e. huge) then I would probably push with Q2 or T9 from the SB into Mr. AK, but not 72o. Unless the BB had a massive stack and still has you covered. But if you had him covered that is what I would do.

Now, if everyone has 7+ BB, you should probably tighten up a little more than that because you can afford to miss an orbit or two.

All of the above advice assumes generally balanced chip stacks.

[Blarg]

Well, you generally have less success pushing against someone with either a big stack, especially big enough to call you and take a chance on busting you without breaking a sweat because your own stack size isn't too big, and less success pushing against someone whose stack size is so small he has little to lose by calling with any two. Whether you're on the bubble or not also counts.

You also have to take into account any future value you may be missing by pushing now. What's the general passiveness of not just the blinds, but people out of the blinds who you might be able to get to successfully fold later, when you get a better hand? Sometimes it's worth passing up a slightly +EV situation now to gain a far better one later. For instance, pushing from the SB with any two could be significantly worse than waiting one more hand, till you're in the cut-off, and pushing there instead. You may even have better cards next hand. So, you have to ask yourself, What are your chances now compared to what they are later, depending on all those things? Are you gaining more than you surrender by pushing now instead of one or two hands later?

That's what I was meaning. I didn't meant to be harsh or glib; these are real factors. It's one of those frustrating "it depends" situations all too common in poker, and one where the outcome doesn't necessarily tell you anything useful about whether the initial decision was correct.

Basically, we don't really know what you should do, but if you, with your knowledge of the table, feel that a successful push later is likely enough to be worth giving up the push now, then act accordingly. If not, then don't.

Keep in mind, too, that your terrible table image doesn't actually make the cards in anyone else's hands any better. Unless it's a spite call, most people are going to fold their garbage a very high percentage of the time, whether they're good players or bad, never knowing whether you held even worse garbage than they did. They may hate you for making them do it, but a lot of hands are either garbage or not worth risking a whole tournament on, and they need much stronger hands to call than you need to push with. Even terrible players instinctually understand this. So no matter what they think of you, you'll still get a lot of folds, except from the spiteful, the stupid, or the people with stacks so large or small that they have nothing to lose by calling you.

Push according to table conditions. I wish I could say it better or smarter somehow.

[shejk]

One of the main considerations here should be how many people are left. On the bubble, having lousy FE sucks. You will have to adjust by pushing significantly less marginal hands, as a call is pretty bad even if you have two live cards. Essentially, they will lose money, but so will you.

Earlier on in the tournament, a little less fold equity doesn't matter all that much. Sure, they will call you more often, but then, you will beat them a fair portion of the time they call you with QJo.

My point is: Stealing will still be +chip ev in most situations even with less fold equity. On the bubble when you need somewhere in the neighbourhood of 60-40 to make a coinflip a coinflip for you, getting called is much worse.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
In any push any two situation (folded to me in the SB and i have less than 10x BB), but I have trash... do I still push any two?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the first thing you have to realize is that if you have 8BBs in the SB, your probably aren't in a push any two situation.

If you think the guy is ready to take a stand it would be foolish to push with garbage.

[ewing55]

One thing to keep in mind...

When I get short stacked and start the push-fest. I usually win a blind or two then get called. If I suck-out, I've at least doubled up my chips AND everyone at the table saw the suck-out. It usually makes them a little bit more afraid of calling with a good hand. (Of course they will always call with a monster.)

HEY GUYS: I'm a lousy player, but I JUST STOLE 700 CHIPS from player x. You wanna try me for 1,500???

I also start really paying attention to how much time I use to make my push decision. I'll insta push with trash, but I'll always take a little time when I push a monster.

Now, none of this is going to effect a 2+2'r, but I swim with the fish on Party's 11s. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

---------------Jeff

[valenzuela]

Just dont steal for an orbit( thats what i do, i dunno if it works)

[Scuba Chuck]

I think your question matters more depending on your buyin. At the buyins I play at, I don't think it matters much, as there is still the Gap principle which is hard to cross. Just because you pushed with 92o, doesn't mean you don't get dealt Ax sometimes.

That being said, at the lower buyins, where the mentality is "I know you're bluffing so I call with my garbage." you should be more cautious the next time you push. Or (gulp) show your hand next time you push. Help them clear their conscience (assuming you have a decent push hand - like 77 or something)

[NYCNative]

Whenever a "move" I make is exposed, I make a conscious decision to not do that for a while. But at the lower levels, people have short attention spans.