Too aggressive with no hand and no draw?

[Ghazban]

BB has been at the table for one orbit and hasn't really played a hand. I don't know if he saw me as a raging maniac but I'd raised a couple hands in the past orbit and taken it down either preflop or with a flop bet. Is this a bad time to represent strength without a better read?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 ($287.55)
MP2 ($302.15)
MP3 ($97)
Hero ($227.05)
Button ($41)
SB ($209.9)
BB ($212.5)
UTG ($97.9)
UTG+1 ($197)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $15</font>, Hero calls $9.

Flop: ($31) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $20</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $65</font>

[RiverDood]

Yes.

What are the killer hands here? 33, 44 and JJ. There are no serious flush or straight possibilities. Given that you raised preflop, he's going to regard it as highly unlikely that you've got 33 or 44.

If your JJ is the only hand that can beat him, your betting is going to seem too fast and too insistent to be taken at face value. And if he's got JJ himself, there's nothing you can do to frighten him.

Let's suppose he has AJ. Then your aggressive bet postflop might be an attempt to represent QQ or better. But his preflop raise feels too big to have been AJ. So the odds are he either has JJ or an overpair: QQ, KK or AA.

If he's got any of those, he's probably willing to gamble his whole stack that you don't have him beat. Especially if he's a tight player who wants to be paid big on his premium hands.

Hooray if you did get him to fold in the face of your aggressive nothing. That's the nerviest play of the week! And he's so shockingly tight/weak that he needs psychiatric attention.

But I'll be startled if you did. With a livelier flop, you might scare him off a very good hand. But a big reraise on this flop is like yelling boo at someone 50 feet in front of you. It's just not very scary.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes.

What are the killer hands here? 33, 44 and JJ. There are no serious flush or straight possibilities. Given that you raised preflop, he's going to regard it as highly unlikely that you've got 33 or 44.

If your JJ is the only hand that can beat him, your betting is going to seem too fast and too insistent to be taken at face value. And if he's got JJ himself, there's nothing you can do to frighten him.

Let's suppose he has AJ. Then your aggressive bet postflop might be an attempt to represent QQ or better. But his preflop raise feels too big to have been AJ. So the odds are he either has JJ or an overpair: QQ, KK or AA.

If he's got any of those, he's probably willing to gamble his whole stack that you don't have him beat. Especially if he's a tight player who wants to be paid big on his premium hands.

Hooray if you did get him to fold in the face of your aggressive nothing. That's the nerviest play of the week! And he's so shockingly tight/weak that he needs psychiatric attention.

But I'll be startled if you did. With a livelier flop, you might scare him off a very good hand. But a big reraise on this flop is like yelling boo at someone 50 feet in front of you. It's just not very scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You are making a read dependent bluff with no read and not much of a draw if he decides to call instead of reraise. Lets say he calls, turn is a blank and he checks to you. Do you follow through on your initial bluff with a huge turn bluff?

[jkkkk]

suicidal play.

[amoeba]

I agree with other posters. It doesn't make sense for set of Js, QQ, KK or AA to play this way.

this flop is very harmless.

unless if you think he is so good that he would put in that kind of 3rd level thinking, bluffing like this is not worth it especially if you have been taking it down preflop or on the flop for a while now. And if he is good enough to use that kind of 3rd level thinking, you should probably pick a different table.

[RiverDood]

Looking at it one more time, there's a chance that your opponent is overplaying AK (probably AKs) . . . and that your big raise at the flop will get him to lay it down.

But that's about the only scenario that saves you. Everything else is suicidal for you.

On balance, it's not worth the gamble.

[-Skeme-]

I dislike this a lot.

[Ghazban]

All right, people don't like this, that's fine. I'm not sure I like it, either. However, the detailed responses all seem to put BB squarely on AA-QQ/AK. This I do not agree with. If a guy who's raising a lot of pots and never showing a hand openraises from the CO, the range of hands the BB should reraise with is much, much wider than this.

[BZ_Zorro]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a bad time to represent strength

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see a $20 flop bet representing strength at all. You flat called a large reraise pf, then led out 2/3 pot.

AA or KK usually bets much larger here (30-40). After BB's aggressive pf raise, a set would check this. To me it looks like you hit your AJ.

[wtfsvi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
Is this a bad time to represent strength

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see a $20 flop bet representing strength at all. You flat called a large reraise pf, then led out 2/3 pot.

AA or KK usually bets much larger here (30-40). After BB's aggressive pf raise, a set would check this. To me it looks like you hit your AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've got hero and villain confused. What hero is actually doing, a 2/3 pot raise, shows quite a lot of strength here. I don't like it though, unless he has a read villain's behaviour comes from being tired of being pushed around. If that's my read I will make this play, show my hand, and tighten up.

[BZ_Zorro]

Thank you, I did indeed. Doh.

Looking at it again, I don't think it's terrible.

Trouble is it's dangerous as hell without knowing at least something about your opponent, and even more dangerous given the way you've been playing.

I can see villain having a think about this one and flat calling with quite a few hands. The turn pot will be huge, so unless you catch a miracle, I don't think he's folding unless you're prepared to pot it or push with nothing. Not my cup of tea, though it'd probably be a fun play to make with someone else's money.

[Always Rockets]

[ QUOTE ]
If a guy who's raising a lot of pots and never showing a hand openraises from the CO, the range of hands the BB should reraise with is much, much wider than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that if the BB has only been around for one orbit, he can't have a good enough reaad on your to start making plays back at you with marginal hands, IMO

[Ghazban]

Fair enough, but I'd done it three times since he sat down (never showing the hand). He may not have me pegged as a maniac but I'm sure he doesn't think I'm overly tight.

[fuzzbox]

I would not fancy this situation too much. A Reraise is often a big pair (especially in the blinds), and big pairs dont like shutting down on J-high rainbow flops.

[RiverDood]

It depends on the player.

As long as the blinds are low (which they are here, relative to the action and people's stakes) I'm usually in no hurry to play sheriff against a very aggressive/maniac player until I've got an overwhelming hand. Why go into a huge battle as no better than a 60/40 favorite when there may well be a chance to pick the same fight before long as an almost-certain 80/20 favorite?

What's more, someone who will be acting after you (the button) can take risks that a prudent BB shouldn't. From the button, a reraise with KQ, 88 or A9 is conceivable. If you then check the flop, they know what to do. And if you bet it, their path may be clear, too.

In the BB, playing first with a borderline hand like KQ, 88 or A9 after the flop is going to be a nail-biter. There's no great reason to raise pre-flop with those hands -- and then run the risk of playing out of position with middling cards for a very costly pot. I think you're being too optimistic that the BB will turn into a junior maniac, pre-flop, after watching you take down three pots in one orbit.

Still, I'll be interested to see what the results are.

[Ghazban]

BB minreraised me and I paused for a long time and then folded. I expect he had KK or QQ and didn't want to see an overcard come on the turn. I don't think a set of jacks or a pair of aces 3bets there as they're clearly in a way ahead/way behind situation.

If my hand was QQ instead of AQ, I think I would've folded as well-- is that weak?

[jonnyUCB]

No you're ahead of very few hands that RR before the flop unless you have a good read on BB.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
All right, people don't like this, that's fine. I'm not sure I like it, either. However, the detailed responses all seem to put BB squarely on AA-QQ/AK. This I do not agree with. If a guy who's raising a lot of pots and never showing a hand openraises from the CO, the range of hands the BB should reraise with is much, much wider than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true, but since you have no reads, you really can't assume that this is what he is doing. You'll spew chips if you think your opponents at these levels are actually thinking about the game the way you just described. The reraise here is usually a very strong hand.