Fold? What does this check-raise on the flop mean?

[Sykes]

Getting Hand History Information...
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Hand #5872139-9 at SnG-0026m (No Limit Hold'em Sit and Go)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 10/May/05 15:57:11

missedout is at seat 0 with 1430.
Glory Seeker is at seat 1 with 1450.
raiderhole is at seat 2 with 1620.
bgraves889 is at seat 3 with 1390.
LOVES IT is at seat 4 with 1570.
MarkesanMike is at seat 6 with 1470.
Eazy_Money77 is at seat 7 with 3910.
SumCardsPlz is at seat 8 with 865.
Koro Syndrome is at seat 9 with 1295.
The button is at seat 2.

bgraves889 posts the small blind of 10.
LOVES IT posts the big blind of 20.

missedout: -- --
Glory Seeker: Th Ad
raiderhole: -- --
bgraves889: -- --
LOVES IT: -- --
MarkesanMike: -- --
Eazy_Money77: -- --
SumCardsPlz: -- --
Koro Syndrome: -- --

Pre-flop:

MarkesanMike folds. Eazy_Money77 folds. SumCardsPlz folds. Koro Syndrome folds. missedout folds.
Glory Seeker raises to 60. raiderhole calls.
bgraves889 re-raises to 100. LOVES IT calls. GlorySeeker calls. raiderhole calls.

Flop (board: Td 6h 9s): (pot 400)

bgraves889 checks. LOVES IT checks. Glory Seeker bets 300. raiderhole folds. bgraves889 goes all-in for 1290. LOVES IT folds. Glory Seeker ..........??

Help plz.

[shejk]

I'd fold. Looks like set to me.

Also, I'd fold AT to a raise preflop.

EDIT: Oops, thought it was the other guy checkraising. Still, I'd fold. Especially preflop though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[flopquints]

This early in tourney especially given his pre flop re-raise id say its JJ-AA depending on how tough he is. At best here you are both holding A10. It could mean lower trips if he is a wanksta and reraises those hands, but i doubt it. I say a big overpair.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold. Looks like set to me.

Also, I'd fold AT to a raise preflop.

EDIT: Oops, thought it was the other guy checkraising. Still, I'd fold. Especially preflop though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, it was folded to me in MP3. ATo isn't worth a raise here? What is?

[raptor517]

56s definitely before A10o. that should give u a pretty good range of hands. holla

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
56s definitely before A10o. that should give u a pretty good range of hands. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you like to repeat that in english? Are you saying 65s is a better hand to steal with than ATo?

[MentalCombat]

i'd put him on an overpair and fold like clean laundry if I had no other reads and if i didnt think he had reads on me (ie: i had been betting from position over and over)

[swarm]

Sykes as you have demonstrated in 3 threads today you GREATLY over value AQ-A10. A10off is not a strong hand and not a hand that I want to be playing in a big pot.

You seem to be almost suicidal in your attempt to create big pots with marginal holdings early in SNG's.

To top it off someone re-raised your A10. It was only a min-re-raise which to me looks like somone begging you to come back over the top.

You are really willing to call off your whole stack this early in a SNG with a pair of 10's with how this hand was played pre-flop....

Now let's say this flop came A97 and the same situation arises when you raise 300 and the flop and the re-raiser goes all in.

Are you going to call? Now do you see why playing A10 in raised pots sucks! You can't even play TPTK confidently.

The fact that you don't even now why 56s could be deemed a better steal hand than A10off shows you have some learning to do.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
Sykes as you have demonstrated in 3 threads today you GREATLY over value AQ-A10. A10off is not a strong hand and not a hand that I want to be playing in a big pot.

You seem to be almost suicidal in your attempt to create big pots with marginal holdings early in SNG's.

To top it off someone re-raised your A10. It was only a min-re-raise which to me looks like somone begging you to come back over the top.

You are really willing to call off your whole stack this early in a SNG with a pair of 10's with how this hand was played pre-flop....

Now let's say this flop came A97 and the same situation arises when you raise 300 and the flop and the re-raiser goes all in.

Are you going to call? Now do you see why playing A10 in raised pots sucks! You can't even play TPTK confidently.

The fact that you don't even now why 56s could be deemed a better steal hand than A10off shows you have some learning to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post makes no sense to me. I AM IN MP3. Why am I folding here? I'm definately not limping. How am I playing big pots? I think my bet on the flop is suffienct to say, "I have a hand, try and beat it" and most people fold. However, he check-raised all-in which confused me immensly.

oh, and AQ is an always raise as long as there isn't infinite limpers in.

[Iridox]

I don't think there's anything wrong with raising with AT in that position, but you should have folded to the re-raise. You shouldn't even think about calling the all-in.

[onthebutton]

My bad, I didn't read carefully.

Fold. A10o isn't what you want to go to war with here.

[kyro]

Super easy fold. I don't bet out on the flop either. He min-raised you PF, AK is the only reasonable hand I see you beating here unless he's an idiot.

[nokona13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sykes as you have demonstrated in 3 threads today you GREATLY over value AQ-A10. A10off is not a strong hand and not a hand that I want to be playing in a big pot.

You seem to be almost suicidal in your attempt to create big pots with marginal holdings early in SNG's.

To top it off someone re-raised your A10. It was only a min-re-raise which to me looks like somone begging you to come back over the top.

You are really willing to call off your whole stack this early in a SNG with a pair of 10's with how this hand was played pre-flop....

Now let's say this flop came A97 and the same situation arises when you raise 300 and the flop and the re-raiser goes all in.

Are you going to call? Now do you see why playing A10 in raised pots sucks! You can't even play TPTK confidently.

The fact that you don't even now why 56s could be deemed a better steal hand than A10off shows you have some learning to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post makes no sense to me. I AM IN MP3. Why am I folding here? I'm definately not limping. How am I playing big pots? I think my bet on the flop is suffienct to say, "I have a hand, try and beat it" and most people fold. However, he check-raised all-in which confused me immensly.

oh, and AQ is an always raise as long as there isn't infinite limpers in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to not be annoyed by your combative tone and try to explain why you're asking the wrong questions. There are basically no stealing hands when the blinds are 10-20, because stealing the blinds isn't worth it. Whether you have X or X+30 chips on level 1 of a tourney makes almost no difference with regards to your expected win, but having X or X-400, when your steal and continuation bet fail, makes a big negative difference. So essentially you're making a play with a big downside and no upside.

The other point is that you don't want to play a big pot with AT. You say your bet says, "I have a hand, try and beat it." Fine, he said he could beat it, you called and then made a continuation bet. You're now officially playing a big pot with AT. If you're playing an ultra weak loose table (or if you're gigabet and it's a step higher 5!), then yeah, if you just get called here pre-flop you can try to represent AA/KK and scare him off, but only against incredibly weak players.

Raptor's point about 56s being a better steal hand on level 1 is also important. The idea is that if someone calls or, like here, min-re-raises you, you're really not that likely to win with, say, AQ-AT, since their likely holdings include AQ/AK, JJ-AA, and not too much else (adjust for donks of course). So your AJ is dominated exactly 100% of the time. This is an exaggeration for effect, but the point remains the same. Now if you have 56s, you're basically checkfolding except when you hit a flush or straight, which is going to beat whatever they hold unless they have AKs of your suit. If they hit TPTK, you may get their stack, or at least a couple biggish bets. So now, the upside of your steal is either 30 chips, or maybe someone's stack. Before the upside was 30 chips, MAYBE 90 chips if you just get called and scare them off with a continuation bet. But the point is, those tiny possibilities are for ring games, and they're clearly not even +EV for you since you have trouble getting away when you get played back at.

Don't get pissed when people tell you you don't know enough to ask the right questions. Listen and start asking different questions.

[pooh74]

OP, humble yourself a bit now...bc later you will (hopefully) realize that hands like these are child's play. Sorry to be condescending (but I am going to) but I remember playing like this at the 5s and wondering why I was hardly breaking even. The reraise PF means JJ-AA, AK and maybe AQ+TT sometimes! Of all of those hands, you are ahead of only 1 or 2 of them.

I frankly dont know what you are confused about on this flop because the message seems crystal clear...consider yourself lucky to get the message from villain. Even IF he is bluffing...you should not be playing this hand so strongly in the first place.

[Sykes]

Ok, I've read all your posts and they've all been informative. My original post was asking what could the min-re-raiser could have because, for me, it's quite odd to see a min-re-raise and then a check-raise all-in on the flop. It's not that I haven't gotten played back at, it's just an unusal line to take in this stage of the sng. The players are all weak-loose so I was surprised to see it get folded to me with ATo. Usually this and AJo is a much for me (but not AQ, you guys who fold this are nuts). Usually I don't get involved in a hand like this because I've been reading this forum alot and learning and it has improved my sng play dramatically even though I am doing it at the lowest limits where even a amateur who nut-peddles can make a positive ROI of at least 10%.

To the poster who said he would not bet this flop, why would that be? You have TPTK and your TP could be easily crackable. Don't you want to protect your hand?


By the way, I folded. It was an obvious fold for me to make, I just posted the HH because the line that the opponet did was very strange to me.


I won the sng also, but like the people here say, results don't matter.

[onthebutton]

[ QUOTE ]
To the poster who said he would not bet this flop, why would that be? You have TPTK and your TP could be easily crackable. Don't you want to protect your hand? adaf


[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point. It's VERY likely that you don't have TPTK here. I'd put this guy on a bigger pair than 10-10 here, as I think most people would. Your bet is trying to "protect" a hand that is likely well behind, and you are most likely drawing to 5 outs.

[elonkra]

[ QUOTE ]
My original post was asking what could the min-re-raiser could have because, for me, it's quite odd to see a min-re-raise and then a check-raise all-in on the flop. It's not that I haven't gotten played back at, it's just an unusal line to take in this stage of the sng.

To the poster who said he would not bet this flop, why would that be? You have TPTK and your TP could be easily crackable. Don't you want to protect your hand?

By the way, I folded. It was an obvious fold for me to make, I just posted the HH because the line that the opponet did was very strange to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Several posters have stated pretty clearly now that the odds of you being miles behind in this hand are very high. Although slowplaying isn't usually the best play here (unless he has hit trips or AA, perhaps), the great majority of online players are very capable of doing so w/any overpair. That's why it's not a strange line. And the fact that you're still asking why you shouldn't bet the flop explains why people are telling you you're asking the wrong questions. The guy who told you not to bet the flop wouldn't have seen this flop in the first place, and if he was forced to play it under the circumstances, he'd check, because he knows he's almost certainly way behind to anyone with half a brain who doesn't hold AK.

[Nick M]

My play here would have been different starting preflop. I would have never raised preflop. I might have called but most likely folded. If I called and the button raised I could have folded easily here....oh and I have no clue what that guy has, maybe a set of 9s.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To the poster who said he would not bet this flop, why would that be? You have TPTK and your TP could be easily crackable. Don't you want to protect your hand? adaf


[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point. It's VERY likely that you don't have TPTK here. I'd put this guy on a bigger pair than 10-10 here, as I think most people would. Your bet is trying to "protect" a hand that is likely well behind, and you are most likely drawing to 5 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have TPTK you tard. Top pair meaning top pair on the board and since I have the ace I have top kicker, therefore I have TPTK.

[onthebutton]

Look, jerkoff: Everyone here is trying to help you, but you DO NOT WANT TO LISTEN.

How do you not get it? Do you really think you are ahead here and need to "protect" your hand? You do have top pair on the board with top kicker, congratulations. Just remember that when he turns over KK or AA and he rakes in the pot after playing you for the fool that you obviously are. Then I guess you wouldn't have top pair anymore, would you?

[trojanrabbit]

Absolutely raise with ATo when it's folded to you in the CO. Now the SB min-raises and BB calls. You are probably beat, but you're getting 8-to-1 (9-to-1 assuming button calls). That's worth seeing a flop.

I'd probably check behind on the flop. Absolutely fold to the check-raise.

[jpg7n16]

[ QUOTE ]
I have TPTK you tard. Top pair meaning top pair on the board and since I have the ace I have top kicker, therefore I have TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you are seriously overvaluing this "TPTK" situation. If that's your definition, then you can easily admit that your TP is nullified by their over-pair (if that's what they have). You could also be against a guy with TT or 99 who thought you were trying to steal his blind and wanted to show he actually had a hand. People can do funny things. But that flop could give him trips. It's also possible that he has AA and was trying to milk it PF, then your TK outs are no good either. And yeah he could be trying to bluff you out, or is really loose and has A9 or the like, but those possibilities are remote.

Probable hands for this guy: Pair AA-99, Two Overs (hoping you missed the flop - and your bet was just a CB) AK-AQs

With any of the pairs, you're drawing to 5 outs. Otherwise he has only a few hands (AKs, AKo, AQs) that fit that type of PF betting and flop betting.

Don't risk your tournament on a pair of tens, ace-kicker.

Sole exception: This person goes all-in every flop regardless of what he has. (Which I'd bet was not the case in this hand)

Fold.

And oh yeah: Fold preflop