Party Poker SNG ethical question

[ad101]

Hi, I have run into a bad situation for myself and thought I might ask for some opinions on this forum.

My party poker account has been closed and my balance (which was sizeable for me) has been confiscated. Here is the situation:

A few weeks ago, a buddy and I decided that we would sit at the same $30 SNG table and split any winnings made between us. We also agreed to maintain absolutely NO contact at all during the tournament itself. We figured that, since Party SNGs have pretty high variance, this would be a nice way for us to lower our own variance at these SNGs. We never let the existance of this deal change how we play, and of course never discussed any hands until after the SNG was over. We also used empty no limit cash tables to transfer the money afterward. These SNGs represented a very small sample of the total SNGs that I have played with no deal of this sort in place. Last week, I learned my account had been placed on hold because of an investigation. And yesterday I received an email telling me my account has been closed.

My question is this... does anyone think that the existance of this type of a deal should be considered collusion? (I was told that my account was closed because of collusion.) Is this type of a deal unethical? Finally, do I have any recourse at all? Ideally, Id like to recover my full account and continue playing on Party, but Id certainly be happy if I could at least get some or all of my balance.

Thank you all very much for any responses.

[1C5]

You are an idiot. Of course that is cheating and you should be banned.

[lorinda]

We also used empty no limit cash tables to transfer the money afterward.

Nobody is this stupid.

Lori

[schwza]

i would say that that's cheating. however, it's relatively common for professionals to own pieces of each other in larger tournaments (paul phillips has a great blog entry about that). but, yeah, you cheated. if you were trying to reduce variance, you should have sat in different tourneys.

[ QUOTE ]
We never let the existance of this deal change how we play

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm skeptical, to put it mildly.

[KJ o]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is this stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish you were correct, but I fear you are wrong.

[Verdi]

You were not closed because of the S&Gs alone. You were closed down because of chip dumping. Even it it's on an empty table it's still illegal. Especially if they see you two at the same S&G every now and then...

And yes, you bloody well deserve it.

[lorinda]

I wish you were correct, but I fear you are wrong.

How would they remember to breathe in and out?

Lori

[KJ o]

[ QUOTE ]
How would they remember to breathe in and out

[/ QUOTE ]

That's taken care of by the autonomous nerve system (if that's the correct English term).

Please don't ask me how these people manage to get dressed every morning. (Maybe they don't? Ugh, scary thought...)

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
You were not closed because of the S&Gs alone. You were closed down because of chip dumping. Even it it's on an empty table it's still illegal. Especially if they see you two at the same S&G every now and then...

[/ QUOTE ]

Chip dumping in a ring game is completely pointless and has nothign to do with why this person was banned.

[lorinda]

[ QUOTE ]
Chimp dumping in a ring game is completely pointless and has nothign to do with why this person was banned.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is probably the only reason he was banned.

Lori

[KJ o]

Well, if they chip dump on empty tables *and* play SnG's together, thats all the proof Party needs to find them to be colluding, so yes, it does matter.

Chances are Party wouldn't have noticed otherwise.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chimp dumping in a ring game is completely pointless and has nothign to do with why this person was banned.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is probably the only reason he was banned.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Naturally. Since these guys seem as cunning as plants they probably just played one hand and then quit, flagging their accounts faster than you can say "chipdumping moran".

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chimp dumping in a ring game is completely pointless and has nothign to do with why this person was banned.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is probably the only reason he was banned.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is more that the chip dumping isn't a reason they were banned, just the reason they were caught. Theres a difference.

[rickr]

Call Party, claim ignorance, beg forgiveness, and take whatever deal they MIGHT offer. You come off on this board as either someone who didn't think through the consequences of his actions (which is good) or a lying cheat who got caught and is now looking for a way out (bad). On the phone your demeaner may sway someone in authority to believe the former rather than the latter.

Later,
Rick

[dfscott]

I would just write Party a letter and tell them, "Hey, I didn't know this was a problem. My buddy and I just like to play on the same tables -- we never cheat. And I wasn't laundering money for drug dealers or anything like that, I just didn't want to use the transfer function because it's so confusing."

Also, make sure to tell them that you really are upset about your account getting closed because you'll be losing all that rakeback your affiliate is giving you.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
A few weeks ago, a buddy and I decided that we would sit at the same $30 SNG table and split any winnings made between us

[/ QUOTE ]

the problem with this is that if you optimise your decisions in the game based on your combined net profit then you have an edge - and you have that edge because of a secret agreement

it can get grey - i have problems playing in games with my brother - feels like cheating because i know his game well (he always has it) - there have been complaints but it normally only takes to hearing me gloat after i take the first of his money away before they cease

lots of serious players are paranoid about secret agreements but personally i dont think it happens much - optimising your decisions in the game is the realm of a decent player who wouldnt need to do it

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[ad101]

So it seems like the conclusion is that I am a complete and utter moron. I am not even going to try to deny that since everything I did was INCREDIBLY stupid. And perhaps I do deserve to be banned for my stupidity.

What I am trying to determine is how exactly our setup was cheating. Specifically, how were other players harmed by what we were doing?

Thanks

[PocketJokers]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question but i haven't been playing at party that long. At stars there is a simple and easy way to transfer money between accounts, I would assume Party has a similar system set up that would illiminate OP's need to chip dump at an empty table. Does Party not have a money transfer system or is the OP just that dumb?

[lorinda]

Does Party not have a money transfer system or is the OP just that dumb?

You have to transfer minimum $50, so there's a chance half of their money was under this amount, but chip dumping on nearly any site will get you banned, or at least investigated as on offence in it's own right.

ALWAYS contact support if you wish to transfer money and are unable to do so. Even crappy sites can detect this.

Lori

[multifast1]

If you weren't colluding then why play at the same table??? I can understand an agreement to share all your profits to minimize variability but then you just can't play at the same table together period. The agreement WILL impact your play no matter how much you try to deny it.

Also, I think it's pretty well agreed that it was the chip dumping that caused the "investigation"... once they discovered you're also playing SnG's together at the same table.. well... that's all she wrote.

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
Forgive me if this is a stupid question but i haven't been playing at party that long. At stars there is a simple and easy way to transfer money between accounts, I would assume Party has a similar system set up that would illiminate OP's need to chip dump at an empty table. Does Party not have a money transfer system or is the OP just that dumb?

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe im just overly suspicious of the OP,` but i know that if they did transfer money they get flagged by party who doesnt allow them to sit at the same table together in future.

maybe they werent as stupid as first seems...ok, they were, but only just.

Phill

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]

How would they remember to breathe in and out?

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

They probably have to collude on that. When one forgets to breathe, the other one gives him CPR.

[ad101]

[ QUOTE ]
If you weren't colluding then why play at the same table??? I can understand an agreement to share all your profits to minimize variability but then you just can't play at the same table together period. The agreement WILL impact your play no matter how much you try to deny it.

Also, I think it's pretty well agreed that it was the chip dumping that caused the "investigation"... once they discovered you're also playing SnG's together at the same table.. well... that's all she wrote.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason is that, if you ignore skill, I have a 3 in 10 chance of getting money from an SNG if I sit by myself. The chances of getting money from any SNG goes up to roughly 6 in 9 (probably not exactly) if I am sitting at the same SNG with someone I am splitting winnings with, and it is 6 in 10 if we are playing separate games.

I am just trying to find out how this type of deal hurts any other players involved. I can pretty much piece together what Party was thinking. I just dont feel like any other players were hurt because we never even talked to each other during the sng.

[lorinda]

Get 9 friends and all play together and split your winnings.

Lori

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

I am just trying to find out how this type of deal hurts any other players involved. I can pretty much piece together what Party was thinking. I just dont feel like any other players were hurt because we never even talked to each other during the sng.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because inevitably you will get into situation where you can hurt your buddy but chose not to because it is not in your best interest.

I am glad Party banned you two. One less dynamic duo I won't bump into at the tables.

[zambonidrivr]

glad pp is looking out for this sort of thing. way to go idiot

[pokerlaw]

6 in 9 of money, but if one of you gets 3rd and the other OTM's, you lose money.

Also, if on level 1 you have AA and your buddy has KK, how would you play that?

[SippinSoma]

Again, where's the question of ethics? You chip dumped and got caught. Deal.

[gh9801]

i'm really sure you guys didn't collude during the sngs, because i can already imagine the situation.

(conversation over AIM or whatever)

Dumbass123: [censored] dude
Dumbasspartner: what's up
Dumbass123: i got AA in big blind
Dumbasspartner: dammit, why do you always get big hands when i have a hand
Dumbass123: what do you have
Dumbasspartner: i have pocket 9s
Dumbasspartner: was going to call and try to hit a set, look there's someone raising from early position, but since you have AA in BB i'm going to save my chips and fold.
Dumbass123: WOW! GOOD IDEA BECAUSE IM GOING TO RERAISE
Dumbasspartner: i'm phil hellmuth, bitch
Dumbass123: We're not cheating. Let's chip dump after this
Dumbasspartner: OK!!

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, make sure to tell them that you really are upset about your account getting closed because you'll be losing all that rakeback your affiliate is giving you.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ha ha ha!! No one else found that funny? DFscott, y are u playin the $27's and the $33's on stars and party respectively. I think go back and forth between structures is quite confusing.

[ZebraAss]

...I thought it was funny, gh9801. Nice work.

[Apathy]

Does anyone else think that this is probably a forum semi-regualar posting under a new name because of the nature of this post?

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else think that this is probably a forum semi-regualar posting under a new name because of the nature of this post?

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems pretty likely.

Has anybody heard from Degen today?

EDIT: It seems some people are saying that the deal itself is cheating. Really? Or are people just convinced that you couldn't do this without actually colluding? Obviously the urge to collude would be strong, but I think it's at least hypothetically possible to do this without cheating.

[wh1t3bread]

[ QUOTE ]

i'm phil hellmuth, bitch


[/ QUOTE ]

priceless.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, make sure to tell them that you really are upset about your account getting closed because you'll be losing all that rakeback your affiliate is giving you.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ha ha ha!! No one else found that funny?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad someone else got that... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
DFscott, y are u playin the $27's and the $33's on stars and party respectively. I think go back and forth between structures is quite confusing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and it is (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2361219&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1).

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]

EDIT: It seems some people are saying that the deal itself is cheating. Really? Or are people just convinced that you couldn't do this without actually colluding? Obviously the urge to collude would be strong, but I think it's at least hypothetically possible to do this without cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a fine line. Would you worry about collusion if Annie Duke and Howard Lederer were both at the table? I doubt it, because they're both professionals. What about if a bunch of guys all came into your local B&M together and started whipsaw betting? I've also played plenty of "free" local tournaments and seen guys chip-dump to their girlfriends to keep them in the game.

I think this is one of those situations where you have to avoid even the suspicion of collusion, similiar to how a judge would recuse himself from a case where there might even be the appearance of impropriety.

[chopchoi]

IF everything you said is true, then no, you did not cheat. However, the actions you describe look enough like collusion to give party poker a reasonable beliefe that you were colluding.
Simply avoiding impropriety is not enough; you must avoid even the appearence of inpropriety. In other words, if it might look to someone else like you are cheating, DON'T DO IT!
If I were you I would write to party, explain the situation to them, and tell them they can have the money won in the tourneys you and your friend played together, but ask them to refund the rest of your money. I don't see how they have any entitlement to that money.

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else think that this is probably a forum semi-regualar posting under a new name because of the nature of this post?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just figured it was a troll who set up their account to see if they could start a flamewar.

But then, I tend to be suspicious like that. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

I just figured it was a troll who set up their account to see if they could start a flamewar.

But then, I tend to be suspicious like that. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe, with more than 6 posts your post wouldn't be as fun as it currently is.

[Cry Me A River]

The OP is missing the big picture - Given that he's done absolutely everything that a real colluder would do (sit at a table with buddy, chip dump at empty ring table) how, exactly is Party supposed to know they weren't colluding? ESP?

So everyone who colludes just has to say "We really weren't colluding, it just looks exactly like we were, honest."???

Let me put it another way, I walk into a bank with a gun and a note in my pocket. The note says, "This is a stick up, give me all the money!" I actually have no intention of robbing the bank. The gun a note are in my pocket for completely unrelated reasons. This is where I would invent some totally convoluted explination for them, but that's not the point and I can't be bothered. Assume there's some other perfectly logical, non-criminal expliantion for the gun and note in my pocket. Whatever.

As I'm in line at the bank, the police get a tip telling them the bank is about to be robbed. The police arrive, search everyone (nevermind if this search is legal or not) and find my gun and note.

Exactly how do I convince the police I wasn't about to rob the bank?