10/20 K9s - adjusting to a maniac

[Surfbullet]

Villain here is a 30/20/2.15 after 200 hands.

He'd 3bet my pfr 3 times in a row - I'll raise this after 2 loose limpers many times but didn't want to play it for 3 bets - poor thinking or what?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP folds, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Anyone raise the turn when I get stop-n-go'd? Calling down felt weird.

Surf

[Chobohoya]

I'd raise this preflop.
After the flop I think this is fine. No real reason to raise after the flop.

[Magikist]

I personally have never raised this hand preflop after limpers. Fine, if you think the limpers are especially loose, then it doesn't make much a difference. However, K9s is by no means an autoraise in that spot.

I think you played the hand fine. This is a perfect spot to call down. When he leads the turn, he's either A) picked up a draw and is semibluffing, B) got you beat, or C) is bluffing completely.

Obviously, once you've got it heads up, folding top pair against this guy is out of the question. So do you raise or call the turn? Working backwards - if he's bluffing, he may be drawing dead, and you don't want to blow him off his bluff, so just calling is clear (in the hopes of inducing another bluff on the river). If he's got you beat, well that's self-explanatory; he will frequently 3-bet and you don't want to have to face that. When he's semibluffing, you of course want to raise, but this probability is not high enough in relation to the other possibilities to make raising the turn the right play.

In addition, if he's semibluffing and you raise the turn, often you will be obliged to check through the river, and often he doesn't pay off your river bet when he misses. If he's semibluffing and you just call, a player like this will frequently follow through on the river. Therefore, it's not as necessary in this situation to "charge the draw" by raising the turn.

The 8 on the river is a very bad card for you. There's no good reason to raise this street.

[stripsqueez]

i raise pre-flop but thats just because i hate limpers

the stop and go guys hurt me sometimes when i get aggro betting the flop - its not uncommon for me to raise a flop bet and then fold when i'm bet into on the turn because i have crap for my pre-flop raise - i adjust a bit to that but mostly i like to find an excuse to raise the turn in this spot

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[helpmeout]

K9s is nothing special, I'd probably raise KTs here because of the straight potential and better kicker, K9s is an easy limp though I dont want to be 3bet thats for sure.

I call down here 100% of the time. If he is bluffing well he can bluff the river, if he isnt then I'm not folding to a 3bet so I call.

BTW a 30/20/2 isnt a maniac he is just a LAG.

[Jeffage]

Looks fine. I like to raise preflop, but I can go either way. Basically, you use your position to make sure a bet goes in on every street (either from him or you). And you did that.

Jeff

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally have never raised this hand preflop after limpers. Fine, if you think the limpers are especially loose, then it doesn't make much a difference. However, K9s is by no means an autoraise in that spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often will 2 limpers have substantilly better hand then K9s? Because that is what they need to have to make this raise with position and a chance to get dead money from the blinds a bad move.

Who is the maniac in this hand? 30/20/2 is pretty normal for a good winning player.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW a 30/20/2 isnt a maniac he is just a LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. These were my stats on him by the end of the session - I should have specified that my #s on him after 100 hands were 55/45 - he had 3bet every raise for the last orbit and raised pf if noone else had - so I adjusted my PF play...sometimes I raise this, esp if the limpers are very loose and I feel like I have an edge postflop.

Surf

[MAxx]

"BTW a 30/20/2 isnt a maniac he is just a LAG."

I agree, except I would consider him more of a LAggish TAG.

I Play hand the same. I like kiddo's point about the pf raise, but I don't think limping here is horrible.

[Chobohoya]

[ QUOTE ]
I like kiddo's point about the pf raise,

[/ QUOTE ]
Chobo:
[ QUOTE ]
#2358859 - 05/10/05 05:23 AM

I'd raise this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Strip:
[ QUOTE ]
#2359490 - 05/10/05 09:14 AM
i raise pre-flop but thats just because i hate limpers

[/ QUOTE ]
Kiddo:
[ QUOTE ]
#2361114 - 05/10/05 01:20 PM
How often will 2 limpers have substantilly better hand then K9s? Because that is what they need to have to make this raise with position and a chance to get dead money from the blinds a bad move.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like kiddo's point about the pf raise,

[/ QUOTE ]
Chobo:
[ QUOTE ]
#2358859 - 05/10/05 05:23 AM

I'd raise this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Strip:
[ QUOTE ]
#2359490 - 05/10/05 09:14 AM
i raise pre-flop but thats just because i hate limpers

[/ QUOTE ]
Kiddo:
[ QUOTE ]
#2361114 - 05/10/05 01:20 PM
How often will 2 limpers have substantilly better hand then K9s? Because that is what they need to have to make this raise with position and a chance to get dead money from the blinds a bad move.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Chobo...

Chobo points out a pf raise...

Strip points out a pf raise with reason...

Kiddo points out a pf raise with solid reasoning...

Sorry dog, Kiddo's hit home more and thus I linked the Idea to his handle. Until his comment i didnt really feel why a raise was important.

[Chobohoya]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry dog, Kiddo's hit home more and thus I linked the Idea to his handle. Until his comment i didnt really feel why a raise was important.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all good. His post was far better than mine for including reasoning. When I discussed this hand with Surf in person, I believe my reasoning for the raise was first articulated thusly: "Cause f-ck that guy!"

[Surfbullet]

Villain had T8o. I don't know if he'd call a turn raise or not, but I know he would have kept betting the river whether he missed or not - this guy was a relentless bettor whether it was bluffs or "value bets" like this turn move here.

Surf