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poboy

05-09-2005, 09:16 PM

I've been having problems playing QQ, so I though I'd post a couple hands and see what I'm doing wrong.

Hand #1
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($5.90)
CO ($5.55)
Button ($36.05)
SB ($25.50)
BB ($29.75)
UTG ($31)
UTG+1 ($24.75)
MP1 ($26.95)
Hero ($32.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.5, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.25.

Flop: ($3.35) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $3.5, UTG+1 raises to $7, Hero raises to $11.75, UTG+1 calls $4.75.

Turn: ($26.85) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($26.85) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $11.5 (All-In), Hero calls $11.50.

Final Pot: $49.85

Hand #2
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($10)
Button ($46.35)
SB ($16.15)
BB ($24.75)
UTG ($92.85)
Hero ($22.45)
MP1 ($24.65)
MP2 ($27.60)
MP3 ($36.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.35.
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.5, 4 folds, Button calls $1.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($3.70) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3, Button calls $3.

Turn: ($9.70) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4, Button calls $4.

River: ($17.70) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4.25, Button calls $4.25.

Final Pot: $26.20

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qd Qs (one pair, queens).
Button has Ks Jc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Button wins $26.20. 

Hand #3
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 ($23.45)
MP3 ($24.30)
CO ($18.05)
Button ($25.80)
SB ($6.40)
BB ($25)
Hero ($24.05)
UTG+1 ($19.80)
MP1 ($23)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero raises to $1.5, 7 folds, BB calls $1.25.

Flop: ($3.10) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BB calls $3.

Turn: ($9.10) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4.5, BB raises to $15, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $28.60

Results in white below: 
No showdown. BB wins $28.60. 

In hand #1 villian is 62/20/2 and will not fold until he sees all the cards. The result didn't come through but he had T8 for trips.

In hand #2 villian is 50/6/.8 and loves to gambool, though at the time I didn't know this(I had only been at table a few hands)

In hand #3 villian is 22/6/1.6 and seems to be decent, I'm glad that spade hit or this one would have been worse

mason55

05-09-2005, 09:22 PM

I think you're just getting some bad variance.

Hand 1, if you're going to reraise, put it all in while you're still ahead. I would probably just call, fire half pot at the turn and fold to a raise, and probably check fold if my raise was called on the turn.

Hand 2, that turn card is possibly the WORST card in the deck for you. If you're going to keep betting you have to bet big at that hand and rep the ace. I probably check fold the turn. As I said, what hand are you beating there, especially if you're not going to try to take it away from him.

Hand 3 looks fine. Nice turn blocking bet.

-Skeme-

05-09-2005, 09:56 PM

Hand #1:

UTG+1s limp-call, followed by a check-minraise of your flop overbet screams set to me. Either way, set or no set, I don't think you're ahead of him at this point. I dislike your re-minraise. I also dislike your overbet on the flop. You have an overpair on a Ten high, rainbow board, with no real straight draws either. This is a perfect flop for your overpair. I'd bet $2-$2.50. I'd check behind on the turn and I might fold on the river. Depends on player usually, but I really think he has a boat.

Hand #2:

$1.50 seems like a bit too much. I'd make it $1 to go. I might check here, but I guess a bet is alright just to feel around for information. Once he calls I am checking for sure, though. The turn completes a straight, a flush and it's another overcard. I don't see why you're still betting. River is weak, too. Either bet big and represent AK or something or don't bet at all. It just entices crappy hands like small Ace and paint hands to call down, and you're not beating either of them.

Hand #3:

Once again, I think $1.50 is too much. 4xBB is good enough without any limpers. Flop is fine. Turn is weak. Quit betting so weak when scare cards come. All it takes is an alert opponent to recognize this betting pattern and he'll be pushing you off of hands with nothing. I'd fold to his raise without a good read, but it's hard since your small bets on scare cards kind of entice bluffs. Look at it this way.. when is a typical, decent player more likely to bluff? When you bet the pot, or when you bet less than half of the pot on a scare card, immediately after potting a safe flop? Astute players can pick up on this, buddy.

amoeba

05-09-2005, 10:00 PM

I thought I was going to get relationship advice.

: (

amoeba

05-09-2005, 10:13 PM

hand 1.

dont minrereraise the flop on hand 1.

hand 1 has a very safe drawless flop (i doubt villain is on 35) so his minraise either means he has a T and puts you on missed overcards or he has a set.

once you call his raise, check the turn if checked to, bet the river for value if checked to and only single T on the board. if a T shows up, check fold. The only hand he minraises with on the flop that you beat is JJ.

the minrereraise on the flop inflated the pot and pretty much forced you to call regardless of what turned up on the turn or river.

hand 2.

once you get to the turn check fold. villain loves to gamble so he could be on any draw. that K of diamonds is about the worst card for you.

hand 3.

I think its played fine.
I like the turn bet since if he had something like AJ, he might be tempted to bet the river putting you to tough decision. its very hard for him to raise with a J on a bluff when you bet the turn on the scare card. I think hand 3 is played fine.

amoeba

05-09-2005, 10:18 PM

I don't agree on hand 3. hero bet half pot on the turn. if he was going to bet more, he is better off checking behind and calling the river value bet.

-Skeme-

05-09-2005, 10:23 PM

Betting full pot when you think your hand is good, and then half-pot when a scare card comes isn't good.

And I have no idea what you mean by, "if he was going to bet more, he is better off checking behind and calling the river value bet."

I'm not saying betting half here is horrible, I'm saying betting weak every time a scare card comes is.

amoeba

05-09-2005, 10:26 PM

like I said, if you really think that villain is this tricky, I would check behind on the turn and call a reasonable river bet.

I have rarely seen somebody check raise on a bluff when a 3 flush finishes.

-Skeme-

05-09-2005, 10:49 PM

I didn't say he was tricky or bluffing. I'm saying there is a greater chance someone would bluff to a weak bet on a scare card as opposed to a strong bet on a potential scare card.

amoeba

05-09-2005, 11:02 PM

right and what I'm saying is making a strong bet is pointless as you are only folding out hands you beat unless if you think he is so tight that he folds a set here.

-Skeme-

05-09-2005, 11:08 PM

If you have him pegged on a set then why are you betting at all? You don't think AJ calls a decent bet here? If a spade scares you on the turn then check behind. I'm not happy with advertising the strength of your hand by repeatedly reducing your bet sizes when a tricky card comes. This greatly increases the chances that you will be pushed off of hands.

PoBoy321

05-09-2005, 11:21 PM

Hand #1: I really hate putting in the 3rd raise with QQ. Against most opponents you'll find that you're behind when you're check/raised on this board, but it seems like you had a decent read on this villain that he was LAGgy and that he could easily do it with a worse hand. The question is, how much worse? Some laggy players will makes this play with any T and sometimes with an underpair, putting you on missed overcards. In this case, I think that with your read you played the hand fine since you're likely ahead on the flop and there's a decent chance that you're ahead on the river and getting almost 4:1 on the call, I think that you have to make it.

Actually, now that I reread the HH, LAGgy villain's check on the turn when the T hits seems fishy to me. I think that most of the time that he doesn't have a T, he's betting here and checking when he does have a T. That's just a tendency I've found among fishier players. Now I'm not sure what I think about the river call. Ugh.

Hand #2: After villain calls your flop bet, I'm gonna check/fold the turn. Every draw got there, and even though you have the nut flush draw with the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, there's almost no way that you're going to get paid off if you hit. Unless you think that you can bet him off of a better hand, which it doesn't look like you can, I'm just giving up on the hand.

Hand #3: Looks pretty standard.

I think that Skeme brought up some good points. It looks like you're being a bit too transparent with your betting. If I were an observant player at a table with you, I think that I could play against you profitably without looking at my cards. You really need to be more consistent in your betting and stop betting weak when scare cards hit. Either bet more aggressively or check, because the bets that you're making are really just expensive checks and give opponents an opportunity to take pots away from you.

Also, try not to put more than one hand in a post unless they're very similar in the way that the action went, not just in the cards that you had. It'll keep the post a little cleaner and you'll get better advice since people can respond with more specific advice for the hand, rather than having to cover 3 different hands.

amoeba

05-09-2005, 11:26 PM

on the turn, he either has the flush and checked hoping you pay off his river bet or he has a J or 2 pair or set or whatever and want to showdown.

if he has the latter and felt like bluffing the flush since he check called the flop, you don't think he bets the turn?

and if you bet half pot he raises you on a bluff? isn't that silly? why would you bet half pot when the flush completes? why wouldn't you check behind? is he so sure you aren't on AKs or AQs.

All I'm saying is that if villain is tricky and liable to bluff on the river with a fullpot bet, then betting 1/2 the pot on the turn is ok since its unlikely that villain checkraises the turn on a bluff and most likely folds right there. Its a blocking bet for the river. If villain is sophisticated enough to raise you on the turn with a bluff, then you should definitely check behind. However betting full pot on the turn is the worst move out of the 3.

poboy

05-10-2005, 09:41 PM

I think it's a little more than variance(I have more), these were just 3 hands I chose because I felt they were misplayed the worst. I agree that minreraise was pathetic, my thinking was that if I'm still ahead this will keep him in and if I'm not he'll push and I can fold. I like your line better, keeps the pot reasonable. Hand #2 I'm not so sure about, I actually liked that turn(picked up alot of outs). I should have bet it as if I liked it though. Hand 3 I got really lucky, I actually thought he had AJ or a flush draw on the flop. When he pushed I decided it was the flush draw, never would have put him on JJ. Thanks for the advice.

poboy

05-10-2005, 10:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1:

UTG+1s limp-call, followed by a check-minraise of your flop overbet screams set to me. Either way, set or no set, I don't think you're ahead of him at this point. I dislike your re-minraise. I also dislike your overbet on the flop. You have an overpair on a Ten high, rainbow board, with no real straight draws either. This is a perfect flop for your overpair. I'd bet $2-$2.50. I'd check behind on the turn and I might fold on the river. Depends on player usually, but I really think he has a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Against most opponents I agree this screams of a big hand, but this guy was 60+VP$IP at a table where every other hand was being raised pf. I don't consider .15 overbetting the pot, but I don't think betting 2/3 pot as you suggest is bad either. How do you play it once he checkraises?
[ QUOTE ]

Hand #2:

$1.50 seems like a bit too much. I'd make it $1 to go. I might check here, but I guess a bet is alright just to feel around for information. Once he calls I am checking for sure, though. The turn completes a straight, a flush and it's another overcard. I don't see why you're still betting. River is weak, too. Either bet big and represent AK or something or don't bet at all. It just entices crappy hands like small Ace and paint hands to call down, and you're not beating either of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my standard opening raise, keep in mind this is NL25 and if you only bet 3-4XBB you're going to be playing at least 4-5 handed. OOP with QQ in a multiway pot is not a situation I like to be in. I bet the turn because If I check villian is going to push me off my hand which all of sudden had alot of outs(any jack or diamond). The river was just chip spewing.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #3:

Once again, I think $1.50 is too much. 4xBB is good enough without any limpers. Flop is fine. Turn is weak. Quit betting so weak when scare cards come. All it takes is an alert opponent to recognize this betting pattern and he'll be pushing you off of hands with nothing. I'd fold to his raise without a good read, but it's hard since your small bets on scare cards kind of entice bluffs. Look at it this way.. when is a typical, decent player more likely to bluff? When you bet the pot, or when you bet less than half of the pot on a scare card, immediately after potting a safe flop? Astute players can pick up on this, buddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I either need to give it up or act like I have it. Thanks for the advice.

poboy

05-10-2005, 10:28 PM

On hand #1 I like your line, but what do you do if he comes out betting the turn on a non-scare card? I think he's very likely to bet if I just call his raise regardless of what hits the turn.

On hand #2 I picked up an inside str8 flush draw on the turn and felt If I checked villian would not give me odds to draw. Though maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way ,as so far everyone has suggested check-folding. Thanks for the advice.

amoeba

05-10-2005, 10:33 PM

if a T doesn't come and he keeps betting you just call him down.

hes drawing to a 5 outer so you aren't that concerned about protecting your hand.

hitting inside straight won't really pay you off that well and you might split it.

poboy

05-10-2005, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1: I really hate putting in the 3rd raise with QQ. Against most opponents you'll find that you're behind when you're check/raised on this board, but it seems like you had a decent read on this villain that he was LAGgy and that he could easily do it with a worse hand. The question is, how much worse? Some laggy players will makes this play with any T and sometimes with an underpair, putting you on missed overcards. In this case, I think that with your read you played the hand fine since you're likely ahead on the flop and there's a decent chance that you're ahead on the river and getting almost 4:1 on the call, I think that you have to make it.

Actually, now that I reread the HH, LAGgy villain's check on the turn when the T hits seems fishy to me. I think that most of the time that he doesn't have a T, he's betting here and checking when he does have a T. That's just a tendency I've found among fishier players. Now I'm not sure what I think about the river call. Ugh.

[/ QUOTE ]
My thoughts exactly, I felt sick as I was making the call. Should have stuck with my initial read Tx(where x could be anything with this guy). But after checking behind on the turn which could induce a bluff and getting 4:1 I felt like I had to.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #2: After villain calls your flop bet, I'm gonna check/fold the turn. Every draw got there, and even though you have the nut flush draw with the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, there's almost no way that you're going to get paid off if you hit. Unless you think that you can bet him off of a better hand, which it doesn't look like you can, I'm just giving up on the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Seems to be the consensus.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #3: Looks pretty standard.

I think that Skeme brought up some good points. It looks like you're being a bit too transparent with your betting. If I were an observant player at a table with you, I think that I could play against you profitably without looking at my cards. You really need to be more consistent in your betting and stop betting weak when scare cards hit. Either bet more aggressively or check, because the bets that you're making are really just expensive checks and give opponents an opportunity to take pots away from you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you to both of you for pointing that out, I agree completely.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, try not to put more than one hand in a post unless they're very similar in the way that the action went, not just in the cards that you had. It'll keep the post a little cleaner and you'll get better advice since people can respond with more specific advice for the hand, rather than having to cover 3 different hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noted. Thanks for the advice.