Why is my VPIP low? (PP 15/30)

[johnnycakes]

Here are my VPIP stats over the past 34K hands in the Part 15 game.
These seem low compared to what I've heard quoted on this forum, but I can't seem to find more hands to play.

Do any positions in particular look bad, or am I just a low VPIP-er all around?

Thanks for any feedback.

http://www.houseofillusion.com/images/vpip.gif

[lil feller]

You could probably get away with adding some hands on the button, given the right circumstances. Whats your "fold blinds to steal" stat?

lf

[johnnycakes]

http://www.houseofillusion.com/images/34kstats.gif

thanks.

[skp]

Your VPIP is low because you don't try to steal enough and you fold your blinds to steal raises too often.

I am at the office and don't have my PT numbers handy but I think my bb fold to steal is at about 50%. Sb fold to steal is at 70% or maybe 75%. I can't remember my attempt to steal percentage but it's well over 27%.

BTW, I am not saying that my numbers are ideal and that you should strive to get there. I am simply answering your question as to why your VPIP is low. Maybe you are playing the blinds just fine. I note that your loss in the Bb is (0.18 bb) per hand and that is essentially the same as mine. To be exact, mine is at (0.17) per hand.

There is something called the guide to using PT (or something like that anyway) that I picked up for $20. The authors say that if your losses in the bb are less than twice your win rate from your most profitable positions, you are doing quite well in teh blinds. I don't know if that is correct either but it seems to me that your bb loss figures are at a good level.

Overall, I would suggest protecting your blinds more and trying to steal more.

How does your bb/100 compare to what it should be using Nate's formula for figuring out bb/100 using measures of VPIP, W$atSD, and W$WSF?

[pfkaok]

Your folded blind to steal are a little high, so that could increase your VPIP. also, VPIP from SB looks a bit low for the 10/15 structure.

But your BB/hand in the blinds looks okay, so maybe your low defense in those spots isn't really a problem. although it is tough to get a sufficient sample size for positional stats.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't remember my attempt to steal percentage but it's well over 27%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, i didn't notice that... usually should be at least low-mid 30's here IMO.

Nate made the blind steal post, using simulations a while ago, that showed what hands were theoretically profitable to steal from the button with. that def helped me at least get a good idea of what you could set standards at vs. unknowns, then adjust if blinds are overly tight or loose.

[skp]

Having a second look at this, I find it odd that you don't play that many more hands 3 off the button as compared to UTg (or 2 off the button as compared to UTG+1. In fact, your VPIP is higher at UTG plus 1 as compared to 3 off the button. My VPIP numbers show a consistent upward trend from UTG to button.

Perhaps, the solution is not to play more hands in the bb but simply to play more hands in late positions (usually for a arise in an atempt to steal).

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
Having a second look at this, I find it odd that you don't play that many more hands 3 off the button as compared to UTg

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, your LP VPIP does seem pretty low, it seems like you don't loosen up at all until CO or button. maybe this is a result of a lot of times you're facing EP raises, i don't know?

anyways, here's nate's blind steal experiment:

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1162671&For um=All_Forums&Words=%2Bblind%20%2Bsteal&Searchpage =0&Limit=25&Main=1162671&Search=true&where=bodysub &Name=4664&daterange=1&newerval=2&newertype=y&olde rval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1162671

[johnnycakes]

[ QUOTE ]
your VPIP is higher at UTG plus 1 as compared to 3 off the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think my range of hands that I'll play UTG+1 and 3 off the button are very siimilar. The difference is I'll raise these hands first in UTG+1 but fold them if it's already raised to me when I'm 3 off the button, ala KQ.

Make sense?

I agree, it's only logical that the closer I am to the button, the higher my VPIP should be. I think I'm stuck in a state of MP limbo.

[shmahappens]

I have essentially the same statistics as you (with diff # of hands of course!) but higher percentages in the later positions - button 19, 1 15, 2 16, and higher percentages out of the small blind. As well my steal attempts are higher.
A lot of people comment that you need a higher vpip - but it all depends on your style of play (if Derb can win with 30% vpip, who knows where we can draw the line?!).

[johnnycakes]

[ QUOTE ]

How does your bb/100 compare to what it should be using Nate's formula for figuring out bb/100 using measures of VPIP, W$atSD, and W$WSF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Using Nate's formula (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=2241488&Foru m=All_Forums&Words=-re%3A&Searchpage=0&Limit=55&Main=2241488&Search=tr ue&where=sub&Name=4664&daterange=1&newerval=4&newe rtype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post2241488 ) my BB/100 should be 4.49 /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[johnnycakes]

Wow, if I follow that advice I'll be adding probably 20% - 25% more hands to my steal arsenal.

I'll give it a shot.

[skp]

That's basically why I asked. Don't get me wrong - your bb/100 is good but given the other parameters, I would have thought it should be much higher.

[jdock99]

I play regularly in a different game than the Party 15/30 where I do moderately well (I am not a professional player). However, I am replying to your post because a couple months ago I took a shot for about 30,000 hands in the Party 15/30 and my stats were eerily similar to yours in almost every regard, except I (unconsciously) made some of the adjustments other posters are suggesting you make, so that my VPIP was around 20%.

Position Stats (http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.gif/?id=438159)

However, where you won $15,000 in about 30,000 hands my total was -$446. Like I said earlier, my stats were almost identical to yours except I played a little more in position and defended my blinds a little more. However my WSF% was only 34% whereas yours was 38%. So obviously, adding the extra hands is only +EV if you play well enough to win with them, which apparently I didn't. In fact, I am wondering if I got my VPIP lowered to 16% by playing less marginal hands in position and defending less if I could get my winrate out of the red. I guess the moral of the story is that increasing your hands will not automatically increase your winrate and make you an elite player. You have to be able to play them well also, which might not so easy.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the moral of the story is that increasing your hands will not automatically increase your winrate and make you an elite player. You have to be able to play them well also, which might not so easy.

[/ QUOTE ]


The reason why many people experience such variance when first incorporating Small Stakes Hold 'em is because it takes you away from the "safe" weak-tight mindset (where you can easily makey money, but very little) to higher variance - and, with that variance, much higher potential ultimately. But if misapplied, many end up doing "worse" in the win/loss bracket than when they were PLAYING "worse" simply because their postflop skills weren't up to snuff.

Another reason why less should be talked about preflop and more postflop, as the arguments you sometimes see of "should I be at 20%?" "no, anything lower than 21.5% is insane" and then "I do X/100 at 22.1%, so eat that with a stick." That is an important discussion but if that's the sole focus, you miss out on the larger picture.

Anyway... those that said it above are right: not enough stealing and not enough defending. But JUST doing more stealing and more defending COULD put you into the deficit if not played correctly in those situations.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)