Trying to learn Pot-Limit Draw

[popniklas]

Hi all draw poker lovers. (You might have read this (http://http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=otherp&Number=1749766&page =0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=6) thread.)

After learning the basics of winning draw play and honing my skills for a few months at the Paradise $1/$2 tables which I now beat regularly, I have decided to try to learn to play pot-limit draw, since the game seems so darn fun (and profitable) if you're good at it.

The main problem, I suppose, is that I have very little experience of and knowledge about big bet poker. I am a half-decent NLHE sng player at best, and outright bad at NLHE cash games and multi table tourneys. Also, although I have become a winner at the soft Paradise draw games I am of course far from an expert on draw (or on any other form of poker, I play mostly LHE and have been playing seriously for only 6-7 months.)

So I realize I have a long way to go to be a good pot-limit draw player. If any of you could provide some assistance along that way, that would be great.

I'm going to post some hand histories here, and would greatly appreciate critical comments and analysis of them. Thanks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[popniklas]

Some hands from today's session: (0.25/0.5 PLD, 24hPoker)

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1: I'm utg w AA and raise the pot. One in MP calls. I draw 3, he draws 1. I get AAA. I check, hoping to induce a bet. He checks.

Comment: My try for a checkraise was a bad play. He would probably check down any two pair here and that is his most likely holding. Was my predraw max-raise too aggressive? How much should I have bet after the draw?

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2: I'm in BB w 66. One agressive and seemingly quite loose player limps from MP, SB completes, I check. We all draw 3 and I get 666. SB checks, I check, expecting the aggressive player to bet. He bets around 2/3 of the pot. SB calls. I raise half the pot and they both fold.

Comment: I think my check was a good play given my read, but raising after the SB called was probably too dangerous. (What would they call me with here? Aces up or better? Or just trips?)

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3: I'm in the CO with a pat K-flush. There are two limpers. I minraise, both blinds and both limpers call and we are five people in the pot. They draw respectively 1, 2, 3, 2 cards. I stand pat and everyone checks. I bet the pot and is called by the 1-card draw who mucks.

Comment: Should I have played it differently? Is this a good way to play a high flush?
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6: I'm in the BB with KKK88. Happy times. Two limpers and the SB enter the pot. I raise the pot, hoping that someone holds a good hand and will call or raise. They all fold.

Comment: A minraise would have been a lot better, right? I want to suck them in and improving their hands, not risking everyone to fold... I guess I thought that I might as well show strength right away since I would stand pat anyway, but in retrospect I did a bad play. Any other suggestions than minraising?

[lucas9000]

even though i know it's not about draw, you should read the reuben & ciaffone book, i think it's "pot limit and no limit hold em." it's all about big bet poker, and many of the concepts carry over to any pl/nl game. excellent book and probably one of the best on pl/nl.

[popniklas]

Yeah I know, I own that book. Have not read it very carefully though, but I intend to re-read some of the chapters.

[Tom Bayes]

I'll make some comments. Keep in mind that I'm certainly not the guru of pot-limit draw ring games, as I play mostly tournaments.

[ QUOTE ]

Some hands from today's session: (0.25/0.5 PLD, 24hPoker)

1: I'm utg w AA and raise the pot. One in MP calls. I draw 3, he draws 1. I get AAA. I check, hoping to induce a bet. He checks.

Comment: My try for a checkraise was a bad play. He would probably check down any two pair here and that is his most likely holding. Was my predraw max-raise too aggressive? How much should I have bet after the draw?


[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> While I almost never open-limp in draw, I usually do not make a pot-sized bet to open either. I will typically open with a bet that is approx. 2/3 the pot (and make this bet whether I'm opening with a big pair, two pair, or trips)-big enough to get rid of decent players with come hands, small enough for donks to call with crap, and small enough to get away from the hand if there's are raises/re-raises behind you. I probably would have bet about 2/3 the pot pre-draw and about 1/2 the pot post-draw. If the opponent is a decent player, he probably has 2 low pair. Unless he tries to buy every pot, he's probably in check-call mode, so see if he'll pay you off. </font>

[ QUOTE ]

2: I'm in BB w 66. One agressive and seemingly quite loose player limps from MP, SB completes, I check. We all draw 3 and I get 666. SB checks, I check, expecting the aggressive player to bet. He bets around 2/3 of the pot. SB calls. I raise half the pot and they both fold.

Comment: I think my check was a good play given my read, but raising after the SB called was probably too dangerous. (What would they call me with here? Aces up or better? Or just trips?)


[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> I like the play based on your read. A more cautious approach would be to just call rather than re-raise, because if he caught higher trips you could be facing another bet to call. Against a less aggro player I'd bet rather than call. What will they call you with? Depends on your table image and how much gamble your opponents have in them. You'll get called by some pretty weak stuff in the €0.25/0.50 game. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font>

[ QUOTE ]

3: I'm in the CO with a pat K-flush. There are two limpers. I minraise, both blinds and both limpers call and we are five people in the pot. They draw respectively 1, 2, 3, 2 cards. I stand pat and everyone checks. I bet the pot and is called by the 1-card draw who mucks.

Comment: Should I have played it differently? Is this a good way to play a high flush?


[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> I'd probably have bet something more like 1/2 the pot. You were fortunate in that the caller either thought you were bluffing or he caught a straight or lower flush. You might often be in big trouble when this bet is called or raised, if someone finishes off an ace-high flush or catches a miracle boat/quads. </font>
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[ QUOTE ]
6: I'm in the BB with KKK88. Happy times. Two limpers and the SB enter the pot. I raise the pot, hoping that someone holds a good hand and will call or raise. They all fold.

Comment: A minraise would have been a lot better, right? I want to suck them in and improving their hands, not risking everyone to fold... I guess I thought that I might as well show strength right away since I would stand pat anyway, but in retrospect I did a bad play. Any other suggestions than minraising?

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> Most limpers have either draws or crummy pairs and aren't going to call a pot-sized bet. A min-raise (or at least a smaller raise) is probably in order here. You want people to come along because it is very unlikely you will be outdrawn. In fact, you hope somebody calls the min-raise and hits his straight or flush-he then might give you his whole stack! If nobody hits a draw, it's unlikely you are getting paid after the draw anyways.</font>

[DOMIT]

I agree with everything Tom says (since he beat me to the punch on the reply ; ) and would like to add something along the lines of the thought process.

Remember one of the fundamental theorms of poker (straight Sklansky), is that you profit by making others make the wrong decisions...

Too many people limp/trap with two pair and trips.. if you just min raise w/ the flush, you ARE give them odds to draw out on you, and, therefore, they are correct in calling the min raise. (Similarly, for the AA hand, should you get min reraised--they reraised only what you raised--you get odds for drawing to beat 2-pair.. but you're in a tough spot, not sure if you have to beat 2-pair or trips or better.. do you call the reraise? Or as Tom pointed out, it's easier to lay down one pair if you're reraised to an extent that you don't have the 2-1 on the call.)

Conversely, with the Kings-full, here's a perfect time to min reraise. Even should someone with AA outdraw to As-full, that's a 98-1 shot, and they definitely didn't have odds for the draw (so even if the miracle happened and they caught, you were still right to only min-raise). You want people drawing dead on you (just min reraising, those flush draws with still come, thinking that they can outdraw).

[crabbypatty]

[ QUOTE ]
1: I'm utg w AA and raise the pot. One in MP calls. I draw 3, he draws 1. I get AAA. I check, hoping to induce a bet. He checks.

Comment: My try for a checkraise was a bad play. He would probably check down any two pair here and that is his most likely holding. Was my predraw max-raise too aggressive? How much should I have bet after the draw?


[/ QUOTE ]

if it were me i would have bet the pot after the draw hoping that the caller had 2pr or paired big with his draw. btw. i don't believe that his most likely holding is 2pr. i think they were on a draw. you can check the hand histories btw.

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[ QUOTE ]
2: I'm in BB w 66. One agressive and seemingly quite loose player limps from MP, SB completes, I check. We all draw 3 and I get 666. SB checks, I check, expecting the aggressive player to bet. He bets around 2/3 of the pot. SB calls. I raise half the pot and they both fold.

Comment: I think my check was a good play given my read, but raising after the SB called was probably too dangerous. (What would they call me with here? Aces up or better? Or just trips?)

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. good read on aggro player. but yes raising here just reopens the betting. just because he is an aggressive player does not mean that he does not have a legitimate hand.

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[ QUOTE ]
3: I'm in the CO with a pat K-flush. There are two limpers. I minraise, both blinds and both limpers call and we are five people in the pot. They draw respectively 1, 2, 3, 2 cards. I stand pat and everyone checks. I bet the pot and is called by the 1-card draw who mucks.

Comment: Should I have played it differently? Is this a good way to play a high flush?

[/ QUOTE ]
well i can't wait to read what other post. i am replying first. i think this hand worked out very well for you. i would have raised the pot predraw though.(just my style) i would also raise with QQ and up though. after the draw you would have to decide how much to bet and get someone to call though. i prefer to get my chips in predraw with the best hand!

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[ QUOTE ]

6: I'm in the BB with KKK88. Happy times. Two limpers and the SB enter the pot. I raise the pot, hoping that someone holds a good hand and will call or raise. They all fold.

Comment: A minraise would have been a lot better, right? I want to suck them in and improving their hands, not risking everyone to fold... I guess I thought that I might as well show strength right away since I would stand pat anyway, but in retrospect I did a bad play. Any other suggestions than minraising?


[/ QUOTE ]

no, i like your raise. this is poker and sometimes you just don't get action on your best hands. with a hand this big you want to try and win the maximum not the minimum. it always seems better in hindsight to say i should have just min-raised; then again, when you do that and someone has a hand that they would have put a lot of chips in with and didn't (for whatever reason) you really start to regret it. if you are playing against me i would prefer that you min-raise otherwise i would suggest just betting it /images/graemlins/cool.gif