Questions about Isolating (15/30 & 30/60)

[imashyboi]

Hi, I noticed that on the higher limit games on Party you'll see players constantly isolating weaker opponents. I have seen players isolating with hands as low as 44 even though someone raised UTG making you fold a hand like KQs. Is this fairly common or are these moves players make to mix up there plays.

If the table your playing at constantly have players isolating each other what hands would you raise in front? How tight do you have to play in order for you to profit when they make a mistake. A table such as this would be very aggressive and some players would definitely have problems adjusting to it. Would you suggest finding a softer table or to play tigher than the isolator.

Any comments about this topic would help.

[Smoothcall]

Anybody reraising an utg raise with 44's is making a mistake!

[piggity]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody reraising an utg raise with 44's is making a mistake!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2257413&page=&view=&s b=5&o=

[Smoothcall]

I don't know why you gave me that link. If there is a cetain part of that thread where it says it is correct to reraise an utg with 44's let me know what poster. Not that it will make a difference though because they made a mistake if they did. And Clarkmeister's utg raise with 33's is a very bad play.

[piggity]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why you gave me that link. If there is a cetain part of that thread where it says it is correct to reraise an utg with 44's let me know what poster. Not that it will make a difference though because they made a mistake if they did. And Clarkmeister's utg raise with 33's is a very bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Smoothcall,

I was just pointing to a thread which had a lot of good discussion about plays which seem "obviously bad" out of context but can be justified given the right circumstances.

In that thread, for example, Clarkmeister gives the reasoning behind his 33 UTG raise in his reply titled "Brief Thoughts."

Also, you probably know this already but reraising a UTG raise with 44 does make sense sometimes (e.g., the UTG is uber-loose preflop, can be outplayed postflop, it's folded to you on the button, and you want to knock out the blinds).

Sorry if I wasn't clear about why I posted the link.

Thanks.

[Smoothcall]

Hi piggity,

I don't think there is ever a time to raise utg with 33's in a 8 handed or more game. His reasoning to raise sounds like a trying to justify a weak play. If the game is that good he should call and try to bring more people in. By raising you might get exactly what you dont want 2 or 3 opponents. By calling he has a better chance to least get 5 to 1 on the limp and be okay. But the best play 8 handed is probably to fold preflop as it is harder to get enough calls when only 7 other opponents. Unless the game is that weak and good as he claims.

I also don't think there is ever a time it is a good play to reraise an utg raise with 44's. There are times when its not as worse as others like the exaples you give. But still not worth doing. Not to mention the swings you would have.

Sorry if i came off little harsh in the orignal response to you. Just when you put the link up with no comment it felt like you were intending to be slightly rude. But i was mistaken.

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody reraising an utg raise with 44's is making a mistake!

[/ QUOTE ]
he's the one u need to be isolating, just play your tight game and hope that he tries to isolate u

[piggity]

Makes sense to me.

I totally agree with you about the 33 UTG raise (was just not confident enough to dismiss the alternate reasoning entirely). I think we can continue to disagree about the 44 reraise (I would occasionally do it, variance be damned /images/graemlins/grin.gif ), but all of your reasoning makes perfect sense.

Thanks for the thoughts, and my apologies for initially coming off as rude..

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody reraising an utg raise with 44's is making a mistake!

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG.

You have to remember that there are players who will open UTG with hands like 63o, 92s, Q5o, etc. There are also players that have somewhat more reasonable opening standards, but play absolutely horribly postflop.
There are also players who won't enter the pot without a premium hand once you 3-bet it.

If you've never 3-bet an early opener with a small pair, you're definately missing some ev (perhaps you've never had control over a table?)

When it comes to outright horrible players, I've 3-bet their early opens with hands a HELL OF A LOT weaker than pocket 4's, and done so profitably.

This isn't situation (where 3-betting an early opener very light is profitable) that comes all the time, or even all that often, but when it does come up, you should be able to recognize it.


BTW, I suspect you would easily call an UTG raise with 44 in the bb. If this is the case, by maintaining your current position, you are vastly undervaluing position and the lead.

[Dazarath]

I remember seeing a thread about this situation. I believe the general consensus was that 3-betting a UTG raise with low pockets could show a slight profit under the following conditions:
- The UTG raiser must be very straightforward, tight player. I guess the idea is if they have AA-TT, they'll let you know preflop, and if they have AK-AJ, you're hoping for a rag flop, or a set.
- You also have to be sure you can push the blinds out, as low pockets aren't going to play well in a 3-way pot.
Of course, all the situations that mmcd described work fine as well.

[Smoothcall]

Just becasue you say i'm wrong doesn't mean i am. You can dream up some ideal dream world situation if you would like to try and win an argument. But in ain't reality. In the long run it is a losing play.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anybody reraising an utg raise with 44's is making a mistake!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2257413&page=&view=&s b=5&o=

[/ QUOTE ]

Just cause clarkmeister raised 33 utg doesn't mean it's profitable.

[NMcNasty]

If you solid tight poker, anyone trying to isolate you with a small pair is making a mistake, except when you're raising from steal position. Just be aware who the isolators are so you can be ready to cap the betting with AQ and TT.

[piggity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anybody reraising an utg raise with 44's is making a mistake!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2257413&page=&view=&s b=5&o=

[/ QUOTE ]

Just cause clarkmeister raised 33 utg doesn't mean it's profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi bicyclekick,

I agree and have said as much in one of my previous replies.

My fault for posting the link without any comments.

[imashyboi]

On your comment below about calling the BB with 44. Are you trying to say that reraising would have been the better option if you decided to play? How am I undervaluing position and the lead?