Can I make more at NL than limit?

[joop]

I'm currently playing 2/4 limit at Party, but I'm thinking of switching to NL. Given that I play 6 tables, making 2.5bb/100 (including rakeback), that's $35/hr. What would the equivalent hourly rate be for a comparable NL table? I consider 2/4 limit to be beatable just by playing ABC poker, so I'd be looking for the NL equivalent. Is it possible to 6 table NL as easily as limit? I hear of people beating NL for "10ptBB/100", but I'm not sure how this figure it worked out? I'd like to change as I'm finding limit quite boring and the variance is killing me. Is the variance at NL a lot better?

Thanks in advance.

[-Skeme-]

Yeah, the variance isn't as harsh in NL. Others who play both frequently can probably give you good advice.

[DavidC]

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=226 7381&Forum=All_Forums&Words=ultimate&Searchpage=0& Limit=25&Main=2267381&Search=true&where=sub&Name=1 5618&daterange=1&newerval=4&newertype=w&olderval=& oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post2267381)

[FreakDaddy]

I played 1/2 and 2/4 limit before I moved to NL. I was running about 2.4 BB/100 at 1/2 and around 1 BB/100 at 2/4. I'm crushing the players at 25/50 NL and just beginning to play 100. IMHO, limit players in general are smarter players than most NL players. My experience at limit and how I think about the game has allowed me to run about 28PTBB/100 at 25 (9K hands) and 20PTBB/100 at 50 NL around 17k hands. If you've solidified yourself at limit at those levels then you'll probably double your hourly rate at least.

Also I played 4-5 tables at limit and I only play 3-4 at NL because reads are much more important at NL, where as limit you can pretty much play ABC poker and win.

[joop]

Thanks DavidC and FreakDaddy, your posts answer a few of my questions. Although I'm still trying to work out exactly how much can be made.

50NL sounds quite beatable, and 10PTBB/100 would be a reasonable winrate.

10PTBB/100 is equal to 5 x BB/100, given that the BB at 50NL is $0.5, that's $2.50/100. Playing 2/4 with a 2.5BB/100 winrate would be $10/100. FreakDaddy also mentioned I may not be able to play as many tables at NL, so this would cut down my hourly rate also.

Moving up to 100NL would double my $/100 to $5/100, which is still a long way from $10/100 at 2/4, and still I may not be able to manage 6 tables.

Do my calculations make sense here? It seems that playing one table of 100NL, I would make HALF the amount that I would make at one 2/4 limit table. (Assuming 10PTBB/100 and 2.5BB/100 at NL and limit respectively). Does this sound right??

[FreakDaddy]

NO, a PTBB is double the BB so if you did 10PTBB/100 at 100NL that equals $20 per 100 where as your 2/4 rate is $10 per 100.

[joop]

aaahh, yes... thanks FreakDaddy, I see my mistake. Geez, not sure how well I'll do if I can't figure basic math :P

So I guess the medium is about 50NL equating to 2/4 limit, given the stated winrates, perhaps with a lower hourly rate at NL due to less tables.

This leaves me wondering how difficult the move from 50NL to 100NL is. I think I would have to improve my game a fair bit to pull 2.5BB/100 from 3/6 limit over 6 tables, and this would only be a 50% increase in earnings. Moving from 50NL to 100NL would be a 100% increase, so this would be the sweet spot. Does anyone know if the competition gets considerably tougher at 100NL?

[joewatch]

[ QUOTE ]
This leaves me wondering how difficult the move from 50NL to 100NL is.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, there is not much difference between the games on 50NL and 100NL. You will encounter mostly loose player and some tight players at both levels. The key to winning in the long term is knowing how to adjust to table conditions. IMHO, the main difference between the two is psychological - when you move up, all of the sudden the size of your pots potentially double on every street and that can seem like a lot of money. When you are used to semibluffing for $5 in 50NL, this might be equivalent to a $20 semibluff in 100NL.

I personally play only $1bb games because I play for fun, and a few hundred won/lost isn't much money to me. But if I moved up to $2 or $4, that could mean $1000 lost in a bad week, which would matter to me. NEVER play with scared money.

[joop]

Hey joewatch, thanks for the advice. I know what you mean about being able to handle the extra money flying around. I think I'll start at 25NL and see how I go from there; maybe jump to 50NL pretty quickly, but log a good amount of hands there before thinking about moving up. No doubt I have a lot to learn.

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, limit players in general are smarter players than most NL players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it more like they accidentally make correct decisions more often when faced with calling a bet? (i.e. inability to set pot odds)

[boondockst]

again...other than getting better and learning to put moves/make more reads i see no reason why most people will ever need to move up from NL 25....On good nights you can make an absolute killing (20BB/100+) and while i do still see loose play at higher limits it seems most newer NL players are just dying to move up in stakes as soon as they start playing

Me, i'll be playing NL 25 til i quit playing online probably. $200 in a good day will always be AOK in my book.

[joewatch]

[ QUOTE ]
i see no reason why most people will ever need to move up from NL 25 ... On good nights you can make an absolute killing (20BB/100+)

[/ QUOTE ]

NL 25 = 0.25bb. 20bb/100 = $5/100
Let's say you only make half that w/ NL 100 ($1bb) So 10bb/100 = $10/100

Also, winning bigger pots and playing with better players = more fun.

[joop]

I'm not in a huge hurry to move up straight away, I would rather learn the game whilst making good money, than learn whilst scraping by. But I don't want to waste too much time making a lot less than I could be making at limit. I didn't realise you could make such a killing at the lower limits, since in limit poker you can't double your BB/100 just by moving down one level. Anyway, I will start at 25NL and see how it goes.

Thanks for all your input here.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, limit players in general are smarter players than most NL players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it more like they accidentally make correct decisions more often when faced with calling a bet? (i.e. inability to set pot odds)

[/ QUOTE ]

My statement, being a generality, means that in my opinion limit players have a better understanding of the game and speak more intelligently about pot odds, implied odds, tactical theory and the general math of the game. You have to grasp this well if you're going to be successful at limit. At small stakes NL, there are a lot of bad players and you don't have to fully grasp all these concepts to be profitable.

If you read the micro and small stakes forum for awhile, and compare it to the small stakes NL forum, I think you may agree. Again, this is just my opinion.

[-Skeme-]

$50 and $100 NL both have an infinite number of stupid idiots.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not in a huge hurry to move up straight away, I would rather learn the game whilst making good money, than learn whilst scraping by. But I don't want to waste too much time making a lot less than I could be making at limit. I didn't realise you could make such a killing at the lower limits, since in limit poker you can't double your BB/100 just by moving down one level. Anyway, I will start at 25NL and see how it goes.

Thanks for all your input here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck and stay out of my pots! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[joop]

Thanks mate /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theredpill5]

Joop,

A very good NL player can make 30 - 40 BB/100 at low stakes NL. I'm talk .50/1 NL and under, here. If you were beating 2/4 limit then I think that eventually, you should be able to make 30 BB/100 quite easily. So do the math on that. The variance is extremely low for me. I rarely have a losing session anymore. I play .10/.25 NL and .25/.50 NL. I've had one losing session in the last week and a half and that was because dummy me went to play 1/2 NL for the first time.

[joop]

Hey theredpill5, that sounds pretty good to me! I've had it with nearly 50% of my sessions being losers. It's pretty amazing to think you can make that sorta BB/100, I guess the players are just as bad as limit, it just costs them a lot more when they make their stupid plays.

[excession]

You can make $30-$50/hr pretty comfortably 2/3-tabling the $100 NL tables, especially once you factor in bonuses. 20-30 Big Blinds ($) per 100(ie 10-15PTBB/100) is doable consistently by not great players (eg me) at those stakes.

If I tell you that I only play 5-10 hrs/week and haven't had a losing week since 16th November that should tell you how low the variance is..

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
$50 and $100 NL both have an infinite number of stupid idiots.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it's been tightening up imo, I need to move up again. I'm thinking about skipping the 200's entirely.

[-Skeme-]

$200 NL has been my goal for as long as I can remember. I'll get there soon, whether it's a tight game or not.

[boondockst]

you guys must make millions on your day job or be compulsive gamblers to just absolutely demand that you move up in stakes...i can see wanting to play with better players but...oh well n/m less sharks at my level

[-Skeme-]

$200 is still a very soft game, dude. I want to make more money and I want to become a very good player. Just a personal goal, I guess.

Federal Way, eh? In Seattle myself. Up North in Shoreline. So many people on 2+2 from WA.