Gotta fold this to a raise right?

[ArturiusX]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (11 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (10 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13 BB

150BB downswing to start 6max isnt fun /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[wowacedude]

This might be wrong, but i call PF, it looks like it's going to be at least 3-way action, most likely 4-way, i hate playing this out of position. A call might set you up for a nice flop-CR to protect your hand if your lucky. This is my first thoughts on the hand, postflop is OK to me.

[JohnnyHumongous]

I would check-call the river.

[7ontheline]

I like it all except the preflop raise. OOP I don't think 8s are going to be superstrong 4 way - 1 less caller and I raise for sure. It's not a huge deal though.

River is fine, unless you know button is a habitual bluffer or very aggressive. No hand that you beat is going to raise this board, and plenty of hands that MIGHT call a bet wouldn't bet this for you - you have to bet to get money out of them. Check-call is bad - you'll only be calling hands that beat you. Nobody is going to bet 2 pair on this board.

[KaiShin]

I wouldn't have 3-bet 88 out of the SB with one limper and one CC'er to go along with the PFR.

I'd also check/call the river, fold if its 2 back to me. HU you can bet, but 3-way, no way.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also check/call the river, fold if its 2 back to me. HU you can bet, but 3-way, no way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a river value bet. There are many hands, both 1 and 2 pair, that will call the river bet, but check through if given the chance. Many baby flush hands that have you beat will just call - and since it's multiway and the opposition is relatively passive so we can fold to a raise.

If you check-call you allow your opponents to get a free showdown with hands they would call with, and put bets in when they are ahead.

Surf

[BreakEvenPlayer]

I like a three bet PF and agree with what SurfBullet said.

[Deraj]

Yeah I fold here.

[Vincent Lepore]

No way that you fold! 13BB is to big to give up without a fight. If you get into the habit of folding in these situations people will take a shot at you. Call everytime.

vince

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
No way that you fold! 13BB is to big to give up without a fight. If you get into the habit of folding in these situations people will take a shot at you. Call everytime.

vince

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you go back to the micro's and come back in 500 posts?

Krishan

[tizim]

I'm usually check-calling this river. Much of the value of betting out on a 4-flush river HU exists because your opponent will call with hands you beat, since it's HU for only 1 bet.

Adding in the 3rd person changes the situation entirely...

1) You're hoping that TWO players are diamond-less

2) Your opponents are much less likely to call with pairs. CO sees that you're unafraid of leading into two players on a 4th diamond, AND he must beat the Button behind him as well. If CO actually calls with something like KJ, Button is then very unlikely to overcall with just a pair, since he must beat two players who both don't seem fazed by the 4-flush. Heads up, your opponent may call without a diamond, but 3-way, it's very unlikely that BOTH players will, so much of the value of leading is lost.

3) If CO folds and Button has tendencies to bluff, this is a very tempting spot to bluff. The pot is 11BB, it's now heads up, if he makes any reads at all, and he probably sees you as a tight player. Your line may even look to him like a humongous continuation bet w/ AA-JJ or AK with no diamond.

4) You'll often get a free showdown against opponents with a flush smaller than T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

The bottom line is that Clarkmeister's theorem doesn't apply here since you have to beat more players, they're less likely to call, and you'll often get a free showdown against a flush.

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No way that you fold! 13BB is to big to give up without a fight. If you get into the habit of folding in these situations people will take a shot at you. Call everytime.

vince

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you go back to the micro's and come back in 500 posts?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

[sy_or_bust]

Is this river value bet generally recommended? It must be thin, if it exists at all, no?