Was this a fishy call?? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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crazygoose

05-08-2005, 06:31 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($77.85)
CO ($50)
Button ($34.15)
SB ($54.1)
BB ($44.05)
UTG ($37.5)
UTG+1 ($80.05)
UTG+2 ($42.05)
Hero ($107.75)
MP2 ($29.52)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, UTG+2 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3, 3 folds, Button calls $3, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $2.50, UTG+2 folds.

Flop: ($10.25) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $10, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $21.15.

Turn: ($41.40) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

River: ($41.40) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $41.40

kurto

05-08-2005, 06:39 PM

can't say without knowing something about your opponent.

Good player... then your call is fishy.

Fishy Player... then your call is 50/50

kurto

05-08-2005, 06:51 PM

I'm leaning towards it being a bad call UNLESS the opponent is a maniac.

If its a good player... he either has a set or a monster draw.

Its its a fish... he probably has 2 pair.

If its a maniac... I'd call.

AKQJ10

05-08-2005, 08:41 PM

It could be because I'm not hanging out on these hand history threads enough, but what on earth does this mean?

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: ($10.25) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $10, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $21.15.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean there was another opponent in the hand who raised $11.15 from $10 to $21.15, and you called? (But even that action doesn't explain the pot size. And someone apparently it was heads-up all-in, with no action on the turn and river.) And is it the flop call you're asking about, since I don't see another one?

Sorry in advance if I'm making some newbie mistake here.... just point me to the FAQ on this and I'll go my way.

TheWorstPlayer

05-08-2005, 08:55 PM

I've seen plenty of HHs and also have no idea what happened in this hand so don't feel bad! OP can you explain what the flop action really was?

Tboner7

05-08-2005, 10:11 PM

Looks like Button was left out of the flop

TheWorstPlayer

05-08-2005, 10:18 PM

So the BN was the one who pushed? I think that makes it closer, because he is more likely to have a set, but I still think it's a call.

Raydain

05-09-2005, 12:15 AM

I would say this is an easy call. You can't play such scared poker if you want to win, especially against short stacks. You're getting about 2-1 with TPTK with the only hands you would be worried about is K-J or a set. I would call without thinking twice.

Raydain

05-09-2005, 12:18 AM

How can you talk about folding this hand? This is one of those examples on how weak-tight you guys can play sometimes.

People make moves, don't just play the nuts.

creedofhubris

05-09-2005, 12:33 AM

Dude, you can't even think about folding this, the all-in raise is too small, and you're closing the action; you won't be facing any more bets on turn or river.

I would seriously think about calling this with QQ/AJ as well as AK, even though I know I'm losing a lot of the time. You are putting in 11 to win 30, so you only need to win a little over 1/3 of the time to make money here.

xorbie

05-09-2005, 01:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How can you talk about folding this hand? This is one of those examples on how weak-tight you guys can play sometimes.

People make moves, don't just play the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. People make moves *rarely* because you have to give them credit for it. In this hand, villain is essentially making a medium size raised on a board that almost has to have hit hero. If villain is going to bluff in that sort of situation, he'll do it often and you can catch it later.

Given no reads, the only reason I think about not folding here is that I have the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in my hand, so in case he has QT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif or something similiar he's not in as good shape as he thinks.

TheWorstPlayer

05-09-2005, 01:17 AM

What about the fact that people will make this move with KQ?

PoBoy321

05-09-2005, 01:18 AM

I'm still a little unclear about the action, but it looks like the button pushed all-in? That makes it an easy call. He can easily have KQ or possibly KT if he's LAG. There's a little over $40 in the pot and you have to call $11 more. If he's got 2 pair or a set, so be it, you can't be playing scared poker.

If the SB check/raised, that's a different matter entirely and an easy fold since it's unlikely that he would check/raise you without 2 pair, a set or at the very least a monster draw that you're at best a coinflip against.

crazygoose

05-09-2005, 01:39 AM

After I bet 10 the button raised me 21.15. I completely agree with xorbie. People don't just make moves at this level and when they do they don't last long enough to keep playing that way. Anyways he showed JJ for the quads. I think I should have laid that down.

TheWorstPlayer

05-09-2005, 02:10 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($25)
MP ($29.85)
Button ($24.65)
SB ($25.75)
Hero ($26.5)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, Button folds.

Flop: ($2.35) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2, MP raises to $10, Hero calls $8.

Turn: ($22.35) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP calls $18.85 (All-In), Hero calls $15.50 (All-In).

River: ($56.70) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $56.70

Results in white below: 
MP has Ad 5c (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Ks As (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $53.35. MP wins $3.35. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($68.23)
BB ($21.1)
UTG ($33.54)
MP ($9.13)
Button ($24.87)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.1.
1 fold, MP raises to $0.5, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $1.9, 1 fold, MP calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2, MP calls $7.13 (All-In), Hero calls $5.13.

Turn: ($18.51) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($18.51) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $18.51

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah Kh (two pair, aces and queens).
MP has Ad 3c (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $18.51. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($9.55)
Button ($39.15)
SB ($23.45)
BB ($75.3)
Hero ($54.3)
MP ($23.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $1.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($6.50) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, CO folds, SB raises to $10, Hero raises to $44, SB calls $11.45 (All-In).

Turn: ($71.95) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($71.95) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $71.95

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad Ks (two pair, kings and fives).
SB has 2c Kc (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $71.95. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($36.1)
MP ($32.5)
CO ($28.2)
Button ($52.4)
Hero ($24.75)
BB ($24.5)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.1.
2 folds, CO raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero (poster) calls $1.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($4.25) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $4, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($12.25) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $15, Hero calls $18.75 (All-In), CO calls $3.75.

River: ($49.75) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $49.75

Results in white below: 
Hero has As Kd (one pair, kings).
CO has Qc Ad (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins $49.75. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($19.05)
Hero ($54)
Button ($17.15)
SB ($122.45)
BB ($31.9)
UTG ($14.95)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, Hero raises to $2, Button calls $2, 2 folds.

Flop: ($4.75) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4, Button calls $15.15 (All-In), Hero calls $11.15.

Turn: ($35.05) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($35.05) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $35.05

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ks Ac (two pair, aces and twos).
Button has 7h Kd (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins $35.05. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($0)
Hero ($72)
Button ($13.35)
SB ($25.75)
BB ($24)
UTG ($47.03)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($2.35) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($2.35) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets $4, Hero calls $4.

River: ($10.35) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets $7, Hero calls $7.

Final Pot: $24.35

Results in white below: 
BB has 9d 2d (one pair, threes).
MP doesn't show.
Hero has Kc As (two pair, aces and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $24.35. 

Etc.

kurto

05-09-2005, 02:15 AM

I kind of surprised the number of people who thought his hand was good. There are a few players who make moves, but they're rare enough that you know who they are.

Goose raised strong from EP. Most players know enough to put him on a good hand. A hand that he very likely hit.

He bet $10 on the flop... Most people are going to give him credit for TPTK. The villain only had enough to to double Goose's bet. He wasn't likely to think he was going to fold for another 10. You don't make a move against someone who's likely to call you.

I agree if someone is a total maniac who is constantly stealing, that it would be close. But against your average player or good player... he's showing 2 pair or a set.

So often people want to label people who fold 'weak-tight' when in reality folding may be smart.

9 times out of 10... KQ will call down. They're not going to reraise all in.

I don't know you figure the percentages, but the number of times your average opponent will be making a move has got to be a small percentage compared to the number of times someone shows a set or 2 pair.

If you have a strong read on someone... they're tilting or a complete maniac, then I might lean towards calling as the percentage of 'making a move' goes way up. Otherwise, fold.

I think what went wrong with this hand was, ideally, you want to play a pair for a small pot. I'd bet $5-6 on the flop. If the set smooth calls, then slowdown. I suspect he would have still gone all in...

On one hand... we constantly advise people not to grow broke with a pair. Then we call someone weak when they consider laying down top pair when there's strong clues they're beaten.

TheWorstPlayer

05-09-2005, 02:22 AM

He only has to win 25% of the time to make the call break-even. The guy probably has nothing 5% of the time, a weaker king 15% of the time (at least), a flush draw that you beat 2/3 of the time 10% (at least), K7/J7 5% of the time that you beat 30% of the time. I certainly think you can call this profitably. And yes, when you are deep stacked and/or it is OBVIOUS that you MUST be beat then fine. But with a short stack and only flop action you can't know you are beat here more than 75% of the time. And if you will fold to a push from a short stack on the flop every time that you hit TPTK don't you see how weak that is? You should just muck AK preflop because the chances of your hitting better than TPTK are not very good.

kurto

05-09-2005, 03:01 AM

Though I trust your math about only having to win 25% of the time to be profitable, I think you're other stats on how often he's ahead are way to liberal in favor of the hero.

"The guy probably has nothing 5% of the time" I don't agree with that. Again... you have to consider that the guy isn't likely to think the hero is going to fold for another $10 after just betting $10. I don't think 1 in 20 times, people are just throwing away $20 with nothing. They're not going to bluff a large stack for what amounts to a minraise.

"a weaker king 15% of the time (at least)," The guy called 6x the big blind from UTG. Hero didn't say the guy was particulary loose or idiotic. KQ, KJ are perhaps the only 2 Kings that call (and except for lags, most fold these to a real raise) KJ of course has the hero dominated. And I still say a weaker king doesn't put another $20 when he could put the hero on AK, Aces or possibly even a set.

"a flush draw that you beat 2/3 of the time 10% (at least)" I agree this is likely.

"K7/J7 5%" You really need to have specific notes on a player. I'm playing with plenty of fish, but most players are not calling a 6xbb raise with J7.

"But with a short stack and only flop action you can't know you are beat here" Even calling the guy shortstacked is a little strong. He has 60bb. Not exactly a desperate shortstack. And he only had $3 committed and put in another $27.

"And if you will fold to a push from a short stack on the flop every time that you hit TPTK don't you see how weak that is?" Who said everytime? I call these kinds of bets all the time. But I do it with a read. If its a real shortstack (like 1/2 of this guy) who I think is tilting, if its a maniac or just a complete idiot, I'll call.

I still say, unless you think the opponent is thinking on 3rd level (3rd?), then you can't think he's bluffing. If someone bets, they RARELY ever fold to a minraise, especially if I can't charge them anymore on later streets because I'm all in. Who making that bet expects the hero to fold? You can't bluff someone who isn't likely to fold. So, the ONLY way the villain can be bluffing (assuming he's not a total idiot) is if he thinks that hero will realize that the villain thinks the hero will call... then the hero will say, since the villain knows I'm going to call, "I must be beat", therefore, the hero lays down. (I know that sounds convaluted, but I think I said it right.)

to summarize (and add a little)-
you were too liberal with how often people do this with junk. I agreed with the flush draw/straight draw. But the rest were exxagerated.

I think Goose would have mentioned if the guy was a total idiot.

I've said it before... people on this forum are too quick to assume everyone's an idiot. There are plenty of idiots playing, but its usually abundantly clear who they are. I don't assume everyone's an idiot until they've proven that they are.

And I still think say you can't call a guy with ~60bb a shortstack.

TheWorstPlayer

05-09-2005, 03:14 AM

But everyone IS an idiot! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif You could be right, but he is NOT min-raising, he is raising 20 MORE. And he is a short stack, given the action because he has no more than one bet, so he is obviously going in on the turn if he is behind. So he only has to choose if he is playing the hand or not. Therefore you can't give his raise a lot of credit because he will make this raise with any hand that he wants to play. It doesn't make any sense NOT to push with a hand that is worth a call, given his stack. And therefore he is a short stack.