$100+9 SnG problem

[Martin Aigner]

Party $100+9 SnG, hero is the chipleader with close to 2k. 8handed, blinds 50/100

UTG+1 and +2 muck
UTG+3 (stack before hand 850) calls
UTG+4 mucks
Hero (CO) calls 100 with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Button (stack before hand 1k) raises to 200.
Both blinds muck, UTG+3 and hero call.

Of course the call with 86s is questionable at least, but let´s just say that hero hit the wrong button while multitabling. The call of the second 100 was obviously a nobrainer. Hero doens´t know what the minumum raise means, he hasn´t seen button making this move before. Reads about both players: Nothing fancy, reasonable players.

Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Pot: 750, stack sizes left from opponents: UTG+3 650, Button 800.

UTG+3 checks

What´s the move for hero here and why? A friend and I have had a big discussion about this, and I´d like to get as many respondes as possible to settle our disput.

Thanks in advance

Martin Aigner

[mcpherzen]

I'm on Candid Camera, right?

For the love of Pedro, feel free to:

(a) muck this preflop when the action's on you.
(b) muck this preflop once you've been raised after making a terrible call in the first place
or
(c) muck this on the flop since your hand is 8-high.

SNG's are really pretty simple. You don't need to go out of your way to make them hard.

--Z

[Martin Aigner]

[ QUOTE ]
(a) muck this preflop when the action's on you.


[/ QUOTE ]

As stated before, I don´t want to discuss the first call. It was a mistake

[ QUOTE ]
(b) muck this preflop once you've been raised after making a terrible call in the first place


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be kidding, right? I hope you don´t seriously consider mucking getting 6.5:1 when it costs you only about 5% of your stack without the possibility of getting raised.


[ QUOTE ]
(c) muck this on the flop since your hand is 8-high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess it´s clear that 8 high won´t win the pot, but ever heard something about odds, bluffes, semibluffes... ? Not saying that a check/muck is wrong, I just can´t see why you say that hero´s hand is only 8high.

Martin Aigner

[curtains]

Normal strategy (ignoring prize structure and such) should be to move allin. If you check, your opponent may decide to put all his chips in with AKo or something, and then of course it's a disaster to check and call, although it's very close chip EV wise anyway (It's not close if he has AK as you are probably a favorite against this hand, but based on his range of hands that may include AK, I'm pretty sure it would be a call). Based on the size of the pot, it's unlikely your opponent makes a bet of 200-300 and then folds to a checkraise with only 500 chips left. Mainly it's imperative that you make the last signifigant bet/raise in this situation, and allin seems to be the best way to do that.

If your opponent had more chips, about 1300-1500 or so, then I like check raising in this scenario, yet check folding if they make a large pot committing overbet after you check.

All of the above is not taking into account any prize structure considerations of sit+go play. However I suspect against the button's range of hands, moving allin is the best play in a sit and go format, a multitable tournament or whatever.

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you don´t seriously consider mucking getting 6.5:1 when it costs you only about 5% of your stack without the possibility of getting raised.


[/ QUOTE ]

I see this argument made all the time, and it is wrong, wrong, wrong. When you call with 8-6s in a raised pot pre-flop, you have to ask yourself, "Assuming I'm going to get at least a little heat on the flop (it doeesn't always happen, of course, but it is a reasonable assumption, I think, in a raised pot), what kind of flop will I need to get so that I can correctly feel comfortable putting more money in the pot?" Are you going to like it if the board comes 8-high? Are you going to like it if the board comes 6-high? Personally, I'm only going to like it if I flop 2-pair, trips, quads, the flush, or the straight. I'm not going to do the math, but I'm reasonably certain 6.5-to-1 isn't doing it for me here when I'm hoping for only those boards.

Chip-leading a $109 with 2K chips down to 8 players is a beautiful thing. Respect it. Don't take chances with 8-6 garbage. All those chips buy you time; time your opponents don't have the luxury of because they don't have your stack. Sit back ad let them make mistakes with their smaller stack while you look for/wait for opportunities to push. Once you've doubled up in an SNG, screw bluffing and semi-bluffing. The end game there is about pushing correctly. No one has enough chips to really play poker.

[Elektrik]

Assuming the first call was a mistake, the second call, especially with your stack, is correct given the odds.

On that flop, there's a nice pot and you've got a decent draw, so I push. Obviously you do not want to check call all in, as you won't be employing any FE to give your push the equity to make it correct. The fact that you have 2000 chips and will not be crippled even if you are called and lose is significant, and makes the push even more correct.

[curtains]

Cmon man the guy is trying to present the hand from a postflop point of view, he specified in his original post. He understands that everyone will hate the preflop play, and just wants to talk about the postflop play.

I hate calling with 86s too, but I dont see the point of answering a question that the OP specifically asks to ignore. It was maybe a hand a friend of his played that perhaps demonstrates some important postflop play that he wants to talk about.

We could go on and on over whether or not he could call with 86s after misclicking and so on, but it's a waste of time and energy, because you are only going to misclick so often. (And we all know it wasnt a misclick anyway)

[shejk]

The other option here is checking and hoping to see the turn for free. I might do that if I think it's somewhat likely.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the pot was raised. Guess I've only played this kind of hand checking from the big blind /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Michael C.]

I would push the flop. If they don't have a pocket pair, they'll probably fold. If they do, then you need to hit your draw, which you're getting 2-1 on anyway, making it a fair price. Plus if someone should call you with something like AK, you'd have even more outs.

[stripsqueez]

so i misclicked pre-flop - damn - but stuff happens

so i can call a smallish raise pre-flop after my misclick - hmmm - i feel a bit ashamed about it but ok

so now i hit a good draw but otherwise have nada - i'm thinking my serious choices are to bluff aggresively or survive till the raffle

yawn - i choose survive till the raffle

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Martin Aigner]

OK, so far it seems that it´s an either push or muck situation, where most of you prefer the push. Now this is what I thought (and actually still think), too.

As stated in my original post: I discussed this hand with a friend. Now this friend happens to be an absolute world class player, who definetly already forgot more about poker than I´ll ever know, and his approach in the given situation is a bit different, saying that he would just bet less then all in, something about 2 or 3times the minumum bet (about 1/4th to 1/3rd of the pot). What do you guys think about that approach?

Thanks in advance

Martin Aigner

[Apathy]

It depends on his reasons for doing that, if you can bet an amount less then all in that will give you more FE then betting all in, that is what you should bet. Pushing often looks like a wekaer hand then a bet of 400 or so. Of course you would call any raises, and push any turn if someone smoothcalled.

[Scuba Chuck]

Post flop: I only see two moves. check-fold behind, or be the first with all your chips in the middle.

The math part seems pretty simple. If you think that your opponents will fold ~30% of the time, then this is neutral $EV. If they fold more than 30% than this is +$EV.

1/3 - push, all fold
1/3 - push, called and complete the flush
1/3 - push, called and don't complete

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
his approach in the given situation is a bit different, saying that he would just bet less then all in, something about 2 or 3times the minumum bet (about 1/4th to 1/3rd of the pot). What do you guys think about that approach?


[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that he doesn't understand the chip structure of a Party Poker SitNGo. Can you see hemoraghing?

[Gramps]

If you limp with 86s in the CO behind another limper, you're doing it to pick up a lot of pots when the board is right - knowing you have the big stack as a threat. While you have a good draw, you're sitting with 7-high. If you don't make a play for this pot, you shouldn't be in the hand to start with, b/c part of your reason for being there in the first place is gone. Checking means you win only if the button doesn't bet you out and you hit your hand. Betting means you have two ways to win (and the odds, etc. justify that course of action).

A lot of players like to make "foolio mini-raises" in these games. Maybe they're trying to carry over the limit poker concept of raise to take the initiative or something. Even in the 109s, a lot of players will do this with a wide range of hands (a few with monsters, but usually not). So...a lot of the time the button will be sitting there with two not-so-attractive-looking overcards and would gladly defer to a big stack bet. Charge him a price overcards don't like to pay.

A push looks somewhat suspicious (a "please don't call me I'm drawing" bet). I'd go like 500-600 and call a push. Even if you have to commit 1k to this, you're getting close to 2:1 on your call. Even against an overpair, you have outside straight draws in addition to your flush draw. Not ideal, but not the worst spot to be. But on that raggedy flop against two VP$IP'ers, you'll pick up that juicy pot with a good-sized bet a fair amount of the time IMO, making it overall a significant +EV chip play.

[curtains]

Well if he bets small, he needs to call if one of the players goes allin. You are getting about 40% equity against AA, and it's clearly worth it to call in that situation. Also your bet may look weak and convince the button with AK or AQ to move allin on you, which you'll have to call and will be a small favorite, but will be very unhappy about stringing along.

In conclusion I think betting small is not good, and that allin is clearly correct. There's no way betting small gives you more folding equity compared to moving allin.

[Martin Aigner]

Well, the hand described wasn´t an actual hand I played. It´s taken from Dan Harrington´s book "Harrington on Hold´em". I´ve edited a little bit (rounding up the stacksizes and changing the flop and the colours of the cards so that it´s not too obvious for those who have read the book already, but basically it´s an example given from him ). Of course I didn´t discuss the hand with him, and in fact I´ve never happend to meet him, but I guess the small bet still is his way to play that hand. At least that´s what he´s writing.

When I read that example, which in fact is the very first problem he wants you to solve in this book, I thought that I just don´t see how his approach can be right. IMHO a small bet gives less FE, which is what changes everything.

From his book:

Action: You call for another 100. The pot is now $750. The flop comes 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (Hero has 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif)
Answer: That´s a very good flop for you. Two clubs and only one overcard to your 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. You should make a move to win the hand right here, but cheaply if you can. Players C and F have 640 and 790 respectively. A bet of $100 is too little (too easily called) but $200 or $300 looks looks about right to shake out any week holders. This way his pot odds won´t be too good if he has a call.

Any Thoughts?

Martin Aigner

[curtains]

Ok there were plenty of hands I disagreed with while reading that book. This is one of them of course, and I suspect that if you somehow were able to talk to Dan about the hand, he MIGHT even change his opinion.

I mean if you look at it, his advice for this particular hand is really absurd. To claim that you want to make a move "cheaply" and then to bet 300, when you OBVIOUSLY have to call if anyone moves allin, just makes no sense.

[Martin Aigner]

[ QUOTE ]
I mean if you look at it, his advice for this particular hand is really absurd. To claim that you want to make a move "cheaply" and then to bet 300, when you OBVIOUSLY have to call if anyone moves allin, just makes no sense

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that´s what I thought/think, too. I just started reading the book and was really looking forward to it. But already in the first problem I think he´s clearly wrong. I hope, the rest of the book will be better, although you already said that you disagreed on many things in his book.

Thanks anyway

Martin Aigner

[Scuba Chuck]

What are the odds in a Sit N Go?

Gigabet vs. Dan Harrington?

[Gigabet]

I have actually played with him in a single table satellite. 1k buy in at foxwoods. Me and a gentleman named Texas Ray(from colorado?!) chopped it, while Action Dan went out in the second level pushing over top of an ep raiser with 88, surprisingly enough, the ep raiser called the strong reraise, and his KK held up.

[Michael C.]

Why 30%? Even if they fold 20% of the time or even less it is plus EV. Becuase:

20% of the time= fold, and you win 750
25% of the time= call and win 1,500 (33% of the remaining 80%)
55% of the time= don't hit your flush, and most likely lose 800

Of course sometimes you will be up against a higher flush draw, but figure that is roughly canceled out by the times villian has something like AK and you hit a pair.

If they were to never fold at all it would be slightly minus EV since you aren't quite getting 2-1.

[shejk]

Busting sucks balls.