You are full of it, I call.

[ZebraAss]

50/5 tournament w/ no reads.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t860)
MP1 (t915)
Hero (t975)
MP3 (t2375)
CO (t1030)
Button (t975)
SB (t965)
BB (t740)
UTG (t1165)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t65</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t65, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls t50.

Flop: (t217.50) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t75</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t225</font>, Hero calls t150.

Turn: (t667.50) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 is all in. Hero calls t570.

River: (t1237.50) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t1237.50

Things i considered,

-Small raise pre-flop
-Why he checked the flop
-Why he check-raised the flop
-Why he check-raised to that amount
-Why he pushed the turn.
-Why I thought he was full of [censored].

Corrections in my assumptions? Thoughts? Critiques? Bad play all together?

Thanks

[Seadood228]

A lot of good players will raise preflop and checkraise out of position with a monster hand. A big overpair, JJ, or a complete bluff look like your opponents possible holdings.

By calling his c/r on the flop, you are telling your opponent that you like your hand, for him to still move in on the turn would lead me to believe that you are beat.

I think it's way too early in the tournament to be playing bluff police.

[ZebraAss]

Why would he check on the flop though. To me it was a very suspicious check raise. Maybe he raised because the other player in the hand folded. He also raised EXTREMELY fast, so that was probably why I was so suspicious

[suited_ace]

[ QUOTE ]
He also raised EXTREMELY fast, so that was probably why I was also suspicious

[/ QUOTE ]

Flush draw?

[ZebraAss]

very possible, but the Turn card most likely didnt propel him to push the turn.

[Seadood228]

If he's on a flush draw he's probably got a BD straight with 2 live overs as well, making you a slight dog.

I think that's the best case scenario most of the time.. Not all, but quite often. After he pushes on the turn JJ seems like less of a possibility though..

And his raise is not that large, it's less than the size of the pot.

[ZebraAss]

Yea, I have seen a lot of people Check raise the flop and push the turn. He set himself up with a good place for a huge turn bluff, he just ran into someone who didnt believe him.

[tjh]

I stay out of check-raisers way.

I would fold to his check raise.

Was he bluffing ??

--
tjh

[ZebraAss]

It might be a leak of mine, but I dont like to let people get away with stuff against me. If I thought he had ANYTHING I would have folded.

PS: Was he bluffing isnt the point of the post.

[suited_ace]

I think I'd put Villain on AK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. He raises PF, flop gives him a 4-flush with 2 live overcards. You bet small on a 2-flush board against 2 players and he has 15 outs. It looks like the perfect flop for a semi-bluff.

You just call his raise, which could make him think your hand need improvement and you're waiting for a card. After the board pairs and gives a 2nd 2-flush, a guy holding AK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is very likely to push it here.

[bluefeet]

"...no read"

How many times do you see someone go bust 1st/2nd hand of a tourney under these exact conditions - having 'less than the nut'...hoping the other guy has even less? I swear this happens on 30% of the time. More often than not 'he' lucked into AA or KK early. It's so easy to say 'buuuuulsh&amp;t!" when someone makes an aggressive hand early. Don't forget - the randomizer doesn't care if it's hand #1 or hand#50...you can't assume someone is trying to take ownership of the table with an early move like this.

1) You have no 'read' on this player.
2) You're into the pot T65
3) You missed your set
4) There is an over on the board

...I certainly don't mind the bet on the flop. 1/3 of the pot is perfect to see where you stand and remove anyone that missed. But with the reraise from the original raiser???....it's time to fold.

[tjh]

[ QUOTE ]

Things i considered,

-Small raise pre-flop
-Why he checked the flop
-Why he check-raised the flop
-Why he check-raised to that amount
-Why he pushed the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

Small raise preflop

I suppose because he had KJ AJ or and was out of position with one caller behind him already. The little raise was to keep the Blinds from playing for free and to prevent other limpers. Also because UTG is playing a hand out of position he may worry about his holding. Perhaps a minraise to establish dominance and/or to elicit any further aggression from UTG.

He checked the flop because he connected with the flop and having bad position he decided to wait for any aggressive players to bet out so he could check raise.

He pushed the turn because a pot sized bet equalled the rest of his stack.

The two diamonds theory does have merit and perhaps he bet the turn to discourage the club flush draw. ALthough this is plausible it is also plausible that he had a very good hand on the flop and once he got enough money in there by check-raising the flop he just wanted to shut down the action on the turn.

[Elektrik]

Zebra,

The problem I have with this hand is that you don't have enough information IMO to really know his hand, much less get all your chips in there.

His PF is normal from what I've seen (I'm not sure why you think it's small), and of course you call. Given that you have no reads, it could mean anything, we don't know. I'd bet the flop as well, but once he raises you with what again is a normal sized raise IMO, you're in a tough spot - while he may be bluffing, you also may be drawing to a two outer to something like his KJ+ or QQ+, and you're going to have to go to the felt to find out. IMO, it's not worth the risk this early in the tourney.

Yes, you're going to catch him bluffing some percentage of the time. But is it often enough to put your stack on the line? I would guess not.

[shejk]

I rather believe he missed if he bet out on the flop.

[shefhammer]

What was the purpose of your flop bet?

I think it is way too small to get any info from his raise. Your bet looks so weak that a good player would often raise with nothing. If he has something then he has to raise as well. Because you bet so little you have no idea from his play whether he a hand, no hand or something in between.

[KingDan]

Am I the only one who wants to muck this preflop?

[valenzuela]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who wants to muck this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]
No im with you, I even muck JJ here. Its too hard to figure where you are after the flop with tens and jacks unless you flop a set, I only play 4 hands in this position..the good ol big 4(AA,KK,QQ,AK)

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
No im with you, I even muck JJ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? I think that 10s is a fine hand to call with here, albeit not necessarily every time, but that t65 raise is small. I would call and bet out the J x x flop to 2/3rds or so (however, I have been on UB for a few months, so my understanding of Party's play is a little outdated, so i guess a muck is fine due to t800 starting).

As to if he was bluffing or not, the problem I have w Zeb's play is that he never reraised the villian; and the villian showed aggression everytime he had the chance (checkraising he flop is aggressive in my book, though it doesn't necessarily mean he has anything). Therefore, I can't really tell if he is bluffing or not. Did you consider reraising pre-flop? what about pushing on the flop? if he is bluffing, those moves could get him to muck...

[valenzuela]

I even muck in the 11s , I absolutely hate , hate JJ. This is the poker food chain AA&gt;KK&gt;QQ&gt;JJ, as you see JJ is what makes the chain so succesful when U go to the flop 2handed with JJ chances are KK will take your money. I suck at postflop play so I fold JJ because I cant play it if you can and u can get away from it play JJ.

[ZebraAss]

Just to make it clear, What I did is not the "normal" choice of action I take in this situation. I easily fold an over pair even if an over card doesn’t hit. It's just that in this particular situation I truly, honestly, thought he had nothing.

-Preflop-

He raised to 65 at 10/15 from Early Position.

-Jack high flop-

First to act checks...

-Bets from 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot with 2 over cards or a Jack
-Bets half the pot with JJ.
-Bets the pot with an over pair because of flush draw.

NOTE: No where do I see checking as an option because of position and he was the original raiser.

-Last to act bets 1/3 pot-

-JJ or AA Hmmm. Now first to act folds so I don’t have to worry about keeping anyone in the hand, lets raise this sucker. [I am not raising to 225 here(175 more) I don’t know if anyone else thinks this way but the size/amount of the chips stack that is shown in the screen makes a different mentally to some people. (175 oh wow that’s a lot of chips I cant call that, 150 that’s nothing, I can call that.) I would raise to 275 if I was going to check raise the flop.]
-He bet small, lets raise him because I think he either has an under pair or weak Queen kicker with his jacks.
-I still have a chance to win this pot with AK even if he calls.
-I have a flush draw and 2 over cards I am going to raise this monster to get some chips in that pot

NOTE: I mean seriously, It was like I bet opp. folds he RAISES. Not a moment went by between the other guy folding and him raising. I guess he might be trying to intimidate me or something or something or something.

-Turn-

-If I check and then he checks I will lose a bet
-If I bet small and he doesn’t like his hand any more I will lose chips
-If I can make him think I am bluffing by betting a lot or going all in he might call with a weaker hand then normal.
-Man he called my check-raise! Mother XXXXer! Well crap, I know! I will go all in as fast as I can so it looks like I have a strong hand.


What I thought he was thinking.

-Preflop-

-I have a strong hand, I will raise.

-Flop-

UTG checks…

-If I check here I can check raise if MP2 bets and UTG folds.
-If I bet here and someone calls I will have to bet the turn or he will be able to either take the pot or get a free card that I don’t want him to have.
-If MP2 checks after me I can bet the turn provided that UTG checks to me. This could look like an over pair or it could even just get the other 2 off their hand. So there might be a better chance of them folding if I bet the turn instead of the flop.
-If I check, MP2 bets relatively small and UTG folds I can quickly check raise to make it look like I have a strong hand and I want to take down the pot right now.

-Turn-

-He called my check raise so I have to go all in or I have no chance getting him to fold.

PS: I don’t know if a word of this makes since, if not I am sorry for waiting your time. I didn’t sleep last night. Doh! That’s what I forgot to do.

[Martin Aigner]

[ QUOTE ]
It might be a leak of mine, but I dont like to let people get away with stuff against me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you got enough money, since this attitude can prove to be expensive.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[ZebraAss]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you consider reraising pre-flop? what about pushing on the flop? if he is bluffing, those moves could get him to muck...


[/ QUOTE ]

LEAK!!! My multi-table mode just tells me to call and see what happens. *cough* LEAK *cough*

Ty for pointing that out.

[Woolygimp]

I frequently C/R TPTK, Sets, TPGK so I wouldn't necessarily put UTG+1 on a bad hand.
In my opinion your up against AJ, or QQ-AA a majority of the time.
You have to let this go...

[shejk]

In my opinion, even with your thoughts posted and read, I feel that he has a strong hand and he wants it paid off. This looks like you fell right into the trap. Also, about him raising quickly - first of all I don't like considering this very much as it could pretty much mean anything. Second of all, I look to myself. The times I do this is when I have decided my action beforehand. It is not likely that he has decided that he will checkraise bluff, and thus checks the flop. Either he has a genuine hand and decided he want more money than he's likely to get from a flop bet, or he hasn't but decided on a hunch that he should raise your flop bet. I think the former are more likely.

[suited_ace]

[ QUOTE ]
No im with you, I even muck JJ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ZebraAss]

But how can he check the flop with only one player to act behind him with the intension of check raising. Thats stupid, isnt it? That is why I thought he had nothing.

[ZebraAss]

[ QUOTE ]
No im with you, I even muck JJ here.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is nice that you feel that way but please refrain from doing so in the future. People post that in every single thread like a million times. All those posts do is end conversation which is exactly what I do not want to happen.

Argh! I don’t know why that makes me mad, but it does. PLEASE, stop saying things that have nothing to do with the situation at hand. If i folded pre flop, this thread would not exist, I would not learn what I did wrong, there would be the same old boring threads over and over again, nothing new would come up, no new Ideas, Nothing.

Please, Just stop.

[Elektrik]

[ QUOTE ]
But how can he check the flop with only one player to act behind him with the intension of check raising. Thats stupid, isnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is. But then again, there's a reason these things are so beatable....Just because he checked on the flop, assuming you have no reads AND this is an average $55 SNG, means little, especially given your penalty if you are wrong.

[Scuba Chuck]

Here's the first most glaring mistake:

Whenever you begin a sentence with the word "Why" it should ALWAYS end with a question mark. I see 5 mistakes in your post flop analysis!

Scuba
who thinks if you can define this player as a LAG, then yes, I like your line. Obvious dangers are those who don't value hands like QQ enough. Or those who overvalue hands like J8

[shejk]

I played against a player who called preflop with kk, then called a reraise. Then he flopped top set, and check called the flop. Then he check called the turn, and then he raised the river.

I don't think this guy was afraid of giving a free card. Maybe he has AA with the A of the flush draw. Maybe he has hit a good hand and wants it to get payed off, even if he risks getting outdrawn.

[swarm]

[ QUOTE ]
But how can he check the flop with only one player to act behind him with the intension of check raising. Thats stupid, isnt it? That is why I thought he had nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your going to have to get out of this mind set... It's not what they should do but what they will do.

I've seen people limp QQ with 4 limpers in front of them, i've seen a short stack limp AK on the bubble with two limpers in front of them.

I've seen and been paid off on multiple times when someone will check tptk, two pair, etc with straight and flop draws on the flop and I hit my draw on a free card.

Morons will be morons! You have to let them hang themselves! They will slow play AA to the river no matter what's on the board.

But they do get big hands, misplay big hands, and will often confuse the hell out of you because they make such unorthodox moves.

Sometimes you just got to let a hand go realising that they will make a mistake eventually and your chips will come back to you like a boomerang.