Folding big-slick pre-flop

[FreakDaddy]

Villian was a LAG, but after a decent raise and a call, does anyone else fold this? If this was HU I call it of course, but against two people It's not even even money correct? I was about 90% sure villian had aces. Yeah, I know. How do I know? I don't, but my third eye was screaming aces.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($25.9)
UTG+1 ($57.95)
Hero ($26.7)
MP2 ($23.7)
MP3 ($30.2)
CO ($94.77)
Button ($24.4)
SB ($26.25)
BB ($8.5)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $4</font>, CO calls $4, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero folds.

Flop: ($9.85) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $3</font>, CO folds.

Final Pot: $12.85

[DoomSlice]

Reasons can be made for both call and re-raise, but I can't really see folding here.

1) Calling completes the action and you get a cheap flop.
2) Reraising will give you an idea of where you are and will trap some money in the pot.
3) Folding will make no money... ever /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Reasons can be made for both call and re-raise, but I can't really see folding here.

1) Calling completes the action and you get a cheap flop.
2) Reraising will give you an idea of where you are and will trap some money in the pot.
3) Folding will make no money... ever /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to have to do better to convince me here. I'm an under dog to any pair, and I would bet that one of these two guys that are calling 16x BB pre-flop have at least a pair. Against AA's I'm losing a lot of money if a K or A flops. I just don't see this as a positive EV play. Now if I re-raise and the orginal raiser pushes, I'm -EV big time.

[FreakDaddy]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,370,754 games 0.005 secs 274,150,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 33.9494 % [ 00.33 00.01 ] { AhKd }
Hand 2: 45.9257 % [ 00.46 00.00 ] { JdJc }
Hand 3: 20.1249 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { AsQh }


1,370,754 games 0.005 secs 274,150,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 33.9494 % [ 00.33 00.01 ] { AhKd }
Hand 2: 45.9257 % [ 00.46 00.00 ] { JdJc }
Hand 3: 20.1249 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { AsQh }

Why put money in here? What's the best scenario that's reasonable that I'd be in that would be +EV

[just2ska]

re raise if you get raised again the let it go

reraising lets you know where you are in the hand.

[-Skeme-]

Reraising a LAG, OOP, with AKo doesn't seem too smart to me. I just call this and look at the flop.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
re raise if you get raised again the let it go

reraising lets you know where you are in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty terrible advice for this situation. you're not playing in a tournament.

[FreakDaddy]

I'm beyond confused at how people say this is a call. Can someone give me a range of hands that they think these two players would have that would justify a call and show profitability. I just don't see it.

[Siawyn]

This isn't really a question then. If you're 90% sure villian has aces, then you should be folding no questions asked.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't really a question then. If you're 90% sure villian has aces, then you should be folding no questions asked.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love smart guys. Assume I'm wrong. How do you play this? What range of hands do you place callers on?

[Siawyn]

I'm not being smart.. I'm being very serious. It doesn't happen often but when I'm pretty sure from previous experience that someone has aces, I lay down AK in a heartbeat. What I'm saying is your instinct says you are 90% sure... so why are you doubting it now?

[Siawyn]

And if you want my opinion, I think the reraiser has QQ/KK/AA/AK, and the caller could have a slightly more open range since he expects you to call as well.

I feel better about calling if my AK is suited, because some of my ace/king outs may be dead. Plus, I'm out of position with respect to both of them.

But I go back to what I said earlier.. if your instinct is telling you that you're up against aces.. even if you're only 50% right... it's an easy muck.

[Malachii]

Not looking at the other posts here...

Honestly, if you were really convinced that he had aces, then I think you made a good laydown. It's important to trust your instincts. In my experience, every time that I've felt that I was beat but called anyway... I was beat.

And I think reraising with Ace King is terrible. If you want to see a flop, I would call.

[Tuben]

What an easy FOOOLD.

[Brian462]

IMO you are just giving these people too much credit. Against 2 tight, reasonable opponents, yes I'm thinking of folding here. But generally, without a read, I don't think my opponents at Party 25 are tight enough to fold AK preflop here. If you had no reads, I'm calling here but am worried and playing very very cautiously postflop. Given that villain is an LAG I'm calling here and thinking that if I hit an A or a K I'm likely ahead(but still playing somewhat cautiously postflop especially against CO).

Bottom line, you don't have enough information from these 2 people to think that you are behind, and you are being offered a pretty good price to see the flop(and closing the betting).

EDIT: and if this was played tonight(Saturday) then you simply can't fold this with the usual line up of monkeys that litter these tables.

[BZ_Zorro]

You raised 6x and got a big reraise. Easy fold. You may be ahead, but I think it's a question of how you can play the flop.

You're only going to hit the flop 30-odd% of the time, that's if no one else has an A or K (unlikely). LAG will bet the flop, regardless of his hand. The smooth caller could hold anything. If you're confident seeing an A high to the river against heavy action with two in the pot, you're a better player than me.

Add in the fact that you "sense" AA, and fold is a no brainer. The marginal pot odds here aren't relevant (1 in 3 (at best) chance of flop hit, putting $2.50 into $10 pot), because an A or K flop may not be the best hand in this situation.


Save your 10BB call for limping pocket pairs and flop a set instead. There are better situations for getting 10BB in the pot.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
You raised 6x and got a big reraise. Easy fold. You may be ahead, but I think it's a question of how you can play the flop.

You're only going to hit the flop 30-odd% of the time, that's if no one else has an A or K (unlikely). LAG will bet the flop, regardless of his hand. The smooth caller could hold anything. If you're confident seeing an A high to the river against heavy action with two in the pot, you're a better player than me.

Add in the fact that you "sense" AA, and fold is a no brainer. The marginal pot odds here aren't relevant (1 in 3 (at best) chance of flop hit, putting $2.50 into $10 pot), because an A or K flop may not be the best hand in this situation.


Save your 10BB call for limping pocket pairs and flop a set instead. There are better situations for getting 10BB in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree and that's exactely how I saw it. Why am I going to throw my money into a marginal situation, one in which I may indeed losing a lot if my instinct is correct.

Villian did indeed have AA.

[amoeba]

this is easy fold for me.

you are out of position and will hit A or K 1/3 of the time where hitting it might not be good.

[Mroberts3]

I say fold, and here is why:
1) go with your instincts.... if you think he has aces, then go with your gut.
2) what 2 hands can they have that you will be a favorite. I see you winning a small pot or losing a big one to aces, kings, or someone's set.
3) fold here and lose 1.5... AK will come again. Call and you lose 5.5, thats a lot more money to put into a marginal situation

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
this is easy fold for me.

you are out of position and will hit A or K 1/3 of the time where hitting it might not be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been suprised at the poll results, but now more people are finally saying fold. Yesterday it was like 12:1 call. I guess people at this level overplay big slick and forget why it's called big slick.

[Triumph36]

Why are you raising it so much? That's part of what makes it so difficult.

It's a thin call if you do call, and the key to it is that you are not going to stack anyone if you make your hand, but they will stack you sometimes if they hit a set of aces or kings.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you raising it so much? That's part of what makes it so difficult.

It's a thin call if you do call, and the key to it is that you are not going to stack anyone if you make your hand, but they will stack you sometimes if they hit a set of aces or kings.

[/ QUOTE ]

What in the world are you talking about? /images/graemlins/confused.gif