What to do with AJ here?

[Scuba Chuck]

I would normally play the AJ hand (hand 2 below), but after the first I always wonder. Any thoughts?

#Game No : 2015258366
***** Hand History for Game 2015258366 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12009699 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Saturday, May 07, 22:16:54 EDT 2005
Table Table 12181 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 2: R_Dobes ( $1445 )
Seat 3: thebigbear23 ( $695 )
Seat 4: babemagnet96 ( $1030 )
Seat 6: Toolio ( $1610 )
Seat 7: cricka30 ( $1735 )
Seat 8: Scuba ( $760 )
Seat 10: muhiggins ( $725 )
Trny:12009699 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba [ Ts 5c ]
>You have options at Table 12716 Table!.
>You have options at Table 12185 Table!.
cricka30 folds.
Scuba is all-In [760]
muhiggins is all-In [725]
R_Dobes folds.
thebigbear23 folds.
babemagnet96 folds.
Toolio folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Td, 4d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kc ]
** Dealing River ** [ As ]
>You have options at Table 12185 Table!.
>You have options at Table 12182 Table!.
Scuba shows [ Ts, 5c ] two pairs, tens and fives.
muhiggins shows [ 8h, 8d ] a pair of eights.
Scuba wins 35 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, tens and fives.
Scuba wins 1600 chips from the main pot with two pairs, tens and fives.
muhiggins finished in seventh place.
>You have options at Table 12716 Table!.
muhiggins has left the table.
Game #2015262288 starts.

#Game No : 2015262288
***** Hand History for Game 2015262288 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:12009699 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Saturday, May 07, 22:17:41 EDT 2005
Table Table 12181 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: R_Dobes ( $1445 )
Seat 3: thebigbear23 ( $695 )
Seat 4: babemagnet96 ( $980 )
Seat 6: Toolio ( $1510 )
Seat 7: cricka30 ( $1735 )
Seat 8: Scuba ( $1635 )
Trny:12009699 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba [ Jh As ]
Scuba folds.
R_Dobes folds.
thebigbear23 folds.
babemagnet96 raises [300].
Toolio folds.
>You have options at Table 12716 Table!.
cricka30 folds.
babemagnet96 does not show cards.
babemagnet96 wins 450 chips
Game #2015264683 starts.

[curtains]

I would tend to play it but I don't think folding is terrible by any means.

[Voltron87]

I would play the first and not the second.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I would play the first and not the second.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, I normally wouldn't push the first, but I know BB is VERY tight.

[Al P]

If you had that card guesser program you'd know what action cards are coming and it would make this decision a lot easier.

[Seadood228]

Seems like I've been there a lot lately.

Also, this seems to happen after I've made some pushes with marginal hands and haven't recieved any action, then I actually get a decent hand and have trouble pulling the trigger.

FWIW, I'd probably play AJ. Your last steal would lead me to believe that you will get called by some dominated hands.

[J-Lo]

Whey would ANYONE play the second one. Go read PVS's post on stack sizes. He basically says at lvl 4 you are playing to get ready for the next level (lvl 5). u have 1600 chips. having 1600 or 1750 at lvl 5 is all the same. Whey risk chips w/ a marginal hand when up against 5 others?

Maybe at the higher-- $55's+ --u could think about playing this because u have more post flop play, and bubble play isn't as autopilot, but even then i'd like to fold. I am very tight w/ some chips. I like to wait 'til the bubble to start getting frisky.

Maybe that's a leak in my game? I play very very tight until i get desperate. If i had 800 chips i MIGHT push w/ AJo, but prolly lean towards fold.

[Seadood228]

actually I think your right.

seeing that it's level 4, it might not be as wise to play this OOP, especially if you don't think you can stand a reraise, which a lot of players will do with worse hands than AJ in this spot.

I overlooked that it was only level 4.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Whey would ANYONE play the second one. Go read PVS's post on stack sizes. He basically says at lvl 4 you are playing to get ready for the next level (lvl 5). u have 1600 chips. having 1600 or 1750 at lvl 5 is all the same. Whey risk chips w/ a marginal hand when up against 5 others?

Maybe at the higher-- $55's+ --u could think about playing this because u have more post flop play, and bubble play isn't as autopilot, but even then i'd like to fold. I am very tight w/ some chips. I like to wait 'til the bubble to start getting frisky.

Maybe that's a leak in my game? I play very very tight until i get desperate. If i had 800 chips i MIGHT push w/ AJo, but prolly lean towards fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


Maybe people will play the second hand because they don't take every single word that PVS said in his post literally. Having 1600 or 1750 is not the same. It is never exactly the same if you have 150 more chips. If I started every sit and go with 150 extra chips, my ROI would go up quite a lot, yet these 150 chips don't really mean anything at the 10-15 level right?. Anyway despite all this, folding is probably fine.

Also if you had 800 chips, folding AJo first to act in a 6 handed game with 50-100 blinds is very wrong.

[Blarg]

On the second hand, what I'm thinking about is Bigbear in the cut-off with 695, a hair less than 7xBB. I dunno how thight he is or when the blinds are changing, but soon that will be 3.5xBB, and then after the blinds pass, he'll have only 1.3x the BB, and he's got to steal very soon. At under 10x the BB and the best stealing position on the table, babemagnet is going to have to steal soon too.

Also, the SB and BB are both big stacks, and are probably going to see the flop if the pot's not raised, and maybe even if it is.

So to play your hand, you're not unlikely to have to play a raise from at least one of the two people who have stack sizes encouraging raises, so you have to think about whether you want to risk losing your likely ITM place by eating a raise to play your hand.

If you play it, you may well have to beat the random hands of not just the CO or BTN raiser, but a SB or BB big stack caller.

So even though you probably have the best hand, to play it, you have to ask if you want to play it for a raise, and maybe against multiple players, out of position, and compare that to your chance to make money playing from a better position stealing (or even catching some more good cards) if you wait a bit.

Part of that would depend on how passive the table is, especially the short stacks. Your position ahead of two of the short stacks and the next lowest stack bodes well for your ability to steal after your blinds pass, in three hands, though you'll have just a little bit less to do it with.

I think you'll have better opportunities later, and the $100 you invest now in limping an AJ up front would do you more good to preserve for folding equity or to pay blinds later.

I tend to do longish analyses; somebody tell me if my ideas here are full of baloney.

[curtains]

Im sure Scuba had no intention of limping with AJ here, but was planning to raise if he did play the hand.

[Blarg]

I see.

I don't do a lot of raising with AJo at this level usually, so raising with it didn't even occur to me.

[Mammux]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't do a lot of raising with AJo at this level usually, so raising with it didn't even occur to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I seldom limp at this level, though sometimes with JTs or QJs. Could you share your reasons for limping with AJo? In my view AJo is a typical high card hand that plays best heads up.

-Magnus

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Whey would ANYONE play the second one. Go read PVS's post on stack sizes. He basically says at lvl 4 you are playing to get ready for the next level (lvl 5). u have 1600 chips. having 1600 or 1750 at lvl 5 is all the same. Whey risk chips w/ a marginal hand when up against 5 others?

Maybe at the higher-- $55's+ --u could think about playing this because u have more post flop play, and bubble play isn't as autopilot, but even then i'd like to fold. I am very tight w/ some chips. I like to wait 'til the bubble to start getting frisky.

Maybe that's a leak in my game? I play very very tight until i get desperate. If i had 800 chips i MIGHT push w/ AJo, but prolly lean towards fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold here, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be.

I certainly wouldn't say that raising is wrong. I'm sure many good players would raise here. That's just not my style.

The disturbing thing is that you reference my lvl4 post to advocate folding, but then talk about "waiting 'til the bubble' and 'If i had 800 chips i MIGHT push w/ AJo'. This is clearly the opposite of what I was saying.

Don't use my post as an excuse for weak play. If you want to follow my advice, you shouldn't just follow 50% of it. If I had 800 chips, I would never fold AJ here, and I would push hand much worse than AJ.

When I said that the transition from lvl4 to lvl5 was the most important event in a SnG for me, I meant it. I don't like to wait until the bubble. I have no idea when the bubble or ITM will occur, so there's no way for me to plan. I just manage my stack and try to build it faster than the blinds are going up. This my plan with 6 players left or 4 players left.

Clearly, you need to adjust for the # of players, but that's not my main focus.

Here is my finish breakdown for April:
1st: 20
2nd: 7
3rd: 14
4th: 7
5th: 9
6th: 19
7th: 12
8th: 7
9th: 2
10th: 3

Good month. Small sample...not the point.

Looking back, I had one stretch of 54 games with only 1 4th place finish. I don't like to wait until the bubble.

[Tilt]

I agree with Blarg that limping it is not a good idea. But on the other hand, raising it hard is very likely to get pushed back against or called given the last hand. I do not want to be in this for 300-400 chips and wondering whether to call babemagnets push.

Might this be a good place for the much maligned min raise? My thoughts:

You might send a confusing signal to those looking to steal behind you that you actually have a monster (based on the last hand).

If you get pushed against, you can fold easily as you are not overly invested.

You may be pricing in the blinds for a flop, but you should be able to handle a heads up flop with this. You will have position on the blinds and they will likely play it timidly.

The risk is that you could easily throw away 200 chips like that...and that others read your min raise for the weakness that it is...but throwing AJ into the muck 6 handed seems like a big waste. Seems like a well priced risk to me. Thoughts?

[swarm]

I think this is a fold...

What is your read on babemagnet? Has he been blindstealing? If he has has he been raising 300 or pushing?

The raise to 300 is pecuilar from a 980 stack, almost like he is welcoming a call... He could very well be clueless and not know what he is doing but that would be read dependent.

AJ is vunerable to many hands that he raises with here. I don't see a reason to get in a battle with AJ, I like stealing with AJ but don't like calling with AJ.

It's hard for me to see him folding if you push but once again read dependent. Could he be raising A10 or a lower AX.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't do a lot of raising with AJo at this level usually, so raising with it didn't even occur to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I seldom limp at this level, though sometimes with JTs or QJs. Could you share your reasons for limping with AJo? In my view AJo is a typical high card hand that plays best heads up.

-Magnus

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm don't have the knowledge and experience to serve as much of a guide to anyone, but I was just giving my thoughts on the matter.

I'm not a fan of limping AJo up front, either. I'm not a fan of playing it at all unless in better position. I'm often a fan of playing a lesser hand with good position as opposed to a better hand right up front, where a bet or call will be like walking into fire, and the flop often obligates you to either continue betting with nothing into hands that may have beat you all along, or basically give up the hand if you miss the flop.

If the question is whether to play it or not, limping just occurred to me because with six people left, two of them short stacks, and the blinds not completely crippling, AJo didn't seem to me like a raising hand. Because of the two short stacks, and because my own stack was approximately equal to those of others, it seems like a raise would likely get re-raised and/or called, perhaps by multiple people. AJo doesn't play well multiway and isn't really a hand I want to be taking a raise(or raises) with. First up, if you don't hit the flop and bet out, any bet takes the pot automatically. As the second biggest stack on the table, it seems unnecessary to me to put it all on the line right now, under these conditions.

The limping alternative is not really attractive for the same reasons, but without the fold equity aspects of raising.

It's just not a hand I'm fond of playing in this position with this size of a stack and two shorties. It seems to me almost certain that better opportunities will come along, and that stealing with any two at all might even soon come up as a better opportunity. With the size of his stack, he can afford to wait for those better opportunities.

[J-Lo]

Hrm, maybe that's why i always find myself in DESPERATE situations, where my ONLY play is to push ANY TWO. Damn, i really need to work on my game, not because i'm break even for the last 200 33's i've played. But because i'm trying to mesh too many EASY styles together. I always look for the easy play (read: weak-tight).

On the topic of folding AJ w/ 800 chips. I chose 800 chips because that's the break even point where (i feel) pushing and folding are the same. If my next blind is 100-200 then i am pushing. However, if it's 50-100 i'd fold, but cutrains/PVS advocate a push. I always find pushing from EP leads to disaster. My oponents do not mind calling w/ AT+, 33+ at the 30+3's. Any of them, EP+1 will happily call my push w/ 44.

Alright, after all that rambling i just realized that the extra 2000 chips in play is what makes all the difference. In the 33's, 650 chips (800 less 150 of blinds)still gives you plenty of FE, however, because there are 2000 more chips in play 650 chips isn't a healthy enough stack to give u enough FE down the road.