Men the Master - 55

[curtains]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I find it hard to believe that Men had 55 that one hand against Hellmuth.

[trying2learn]

what do you mean you find it hard to believe?

they showed it on camera. unless they spliced footage from another hand where he had 55 and put into that one with that board...that's a pretty big conspiracy theory...with no point as to why they would do that.

but that call at the end was amazing...88, 99, or 67 are the only hands that beat you there...couldn't believe he made the call...maybe that's what you mean.

[CanKid]

Master my ass, easy fold.

[curtains]

They never showed the hand face up. I just don't believe he had 55 there. Cmon, Phil calls preflop, the turn brings him a set, and Men check calls and then check calls to a duece on the river.

You do realize there is a lot of history for television broadcasts of poker to show hands that the players actually didn't have. When play is so inconsistant with the strength of a hand, I'm going to be skeptical.

[primetime32]

I didnt think of the fixed TV angle, but if it wasnt fixed that was an all time great play by men. I dont know of too many people that would not raise in that spot. The only thinking is that he felt phil either had a monster or nothing and he had nothing to gain by raising.

and now that i think about it, that would be the exact hand to show phil and rub it in his face that he had just read him like a book. Interesting.

[Smoothcall]

I caught the end of the hand but when i looked i saw just the flop 589 rainbow and men mucking. I couldnt believe that laydown. especially for men who has tons of gamble in him. I must have seen it wrong. otherwise it was a fantasic laydown that probably almost nobody les in the oturnament would have made!

[curtains]

He didnt fold , he called.

[twankerr]

Men saw the five and actually grimaced too. The only thing I can think of is the way Phil thought about betting the flop. Maybe Men had a pretty good thought that Phil had a draw. When Phil bets the turn, he probably hit his draw.

[curtains]

I want to hear one good player say they would consider playing 55 like that and give me some reasons why, and until then I simply don't believe Men had 55.

[jenium]

Please explain the hand Greg... I didnt catch it.

[freekobe]

[ QUOTE ]
They never showed the hand face up. I just don't believe he had 55 there. Cmon, Phil calls preflop, the turn brings him a set, and Men check calls and then check calls to a duece on the river.

You do realize there is a lot of history for television broadcasts of poker to show hands that the players actually didn't have. When play is so inconsistant with the strength of a hand, I'm going to be skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe he just didn't want to bust if Hellmuth had the straight.

Maybe there was no hand that Hellmuth had that would have called a raise.

Maybe you have no idea what you're talking about.

Likely.

[burningyen]

Maybe he had a read on him?

[curtains]

I find it funny that numerous people have admitted that their hands were incorrectly represented on television, yet everyone here acts like it's INSANE that this could have happened here.

It's a great winning strategy to passively check call in a headsup match with high blinds and a set of 5's on a 9854 board, out of fear your opponent has exactly 76 for the nut straight.

[freekobe]

[ QUOTE ]

I find it funny that numerous people have admitted that their hands were incorrectly represented on television, yet everyone here acts like it's INSANE that this could have happened here.

It's a great winning strategy to passively check call in a headsup match with high blinds and a set of 5's on a 9854 board, out of fear your opponent has exactly 76 for the nut straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is working on the production team enough reassurance that this hand was not altered? Or do you want to ask a higher authority?

[curtains]

I want to talk to the president of NBC.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to talk to the president of NBC.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's still in jail after that whole "Quiz Show Scandal."

That would make Men the Master the new Charles Van Doren, I guess. Talk about typecasting!!

[curtains]

So Rushmore, what do you think of playing 55 that way?

[freekobe]

[ QUOTE ]

I want to talk to the president of NBC.

[/ QUOTE ]


Good luck with that.

[Punker]

Unraised pot preflop. Flop 984. Men checks. Hellmuth bets, Men calls. Turn 5. Men checks. Hellmuth bets, Men calls. River 2. Men checks. Hellmuth bets, Men calls.

Hellmuth shows 76. Men allegedly has 55.

[curtains]

Hellmuth checked behind on the flop.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
So Rushmore, what do you think of playing 55 that way?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say that I didn't see it, but that based upon what I have read here, it actually DOES sound a little mysterious.

In a headsup match, why would you choose the only hand that beats you to put your opponent on?

And I hate it when people say "Maybe he had a read on him" when there's a situation like this. The only "read" worth following in a spot like this would be the "I saw your cards in the reflection of the camera window thingy" read, and if you actually had THAT read, you wouldn't call down, obviously.

I think we need to look at the grassy knoll a little harder.

Kidding. It looks weird as hell to me, and I can assure you, I'm either not good enough or not bad enough to play this hand this way.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth checked behind on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This fact actually strengthens your case.

[curtains]

If freekobe works on the production team and saw the hand with his own eyes (he never really admitted to this) I no longer insist that it was doctored. The play just looked too strange to me though. If I have 55 there I'm thinking about how to get as many chips in the pot as possible, and I don't think this is a "hole" in my headsup game.

[Jedster]

I'll assume for the sake of the discussion that Men really did have 55.

I'd love to ask him what he was thinking, but I think it was a great play.

Hellmuth has a reputation of folding more hands than he should. This means the likelihood of Men getting a call from a losing hand when/if he raised is even lower than normal.

Most of the time, when Helmuth checks the flop and then bets the turn he either has nothing or a monster. The only really strong (but losing) hand he could have that would call a raise by Men on the river given that action would be be AA-TT. Maybe A9. But wouldn't he have raised A9 or AA-TT preflop? Helmuth easily could check those hands on the flop, but other than A9 i doubt he would limp preflop. And I suspect he'd dump A9 to a raise.

Anyway, if I had to guess, Men was waiting to the river to raise. And then low and behold Helmuth bets 5k on the river -- that's a pretty big bet. It's 25% of their starting stacks. I think just calling here is fine. Now, if helmuth had bet say 1,500, Men might have gotten greedy and tried to raise.

So perhaps instead of wondering if Men made a good play or not, the question is whether Helmuth made a good river bet or not?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
I saw your cards in the reflection of the camera window thingy" read, and if you actually had THAT read, you wouldn't call down, obviously.



[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you would because to fold a set HU with no flush and 67 as the only straight you'd obviously be cheating if you folded to a reasonable bet.

[ononimo]

if the hand was doctored as you allege, what was the point?

it's not like NBC played up Men's "read" and made him out to be some omniscient poker master. Gabe Kaplan continuously expressed confusion about how Men was playing his hand. Why doctor a hand if your paid commentator is only going to proceed to talk about how the play of the hand doesn't make sense (and basically give fuel to conspiracy theorists such as yourself)?

[curtains]

I dont know? What was the point of all of the WSOP hands that are known to be doctored from two years ago?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll assume for the sake of the discussion that Men really did have 55.

I'd love to ask him what he was thinking, but I think it was a great play.

Hellmuth has a reputation of folding more hands than he should. This means the likelihood of Men getting a call from a losing hand when/if he raised is even lower than normal.

Most of the time, when Helmuth checks the flop and then bets the turn he either has nothing or a monster. The only really strong (but losing) hand he could have that would call a raise by Men on the river given that action would be be AA-TT. Maybe A9. But wouldn't he have raised A9 or AA-TT preflop? Helmuth easily could check those hands on the flop, but other than A9 i doubt he would limp preflop. And I suspect he'd dump A9 to a raise.

Anyway, if I had to guess, Men was waiting to the river to raise. And then low and behold Helmuth bets 5k on the river -- that's a pretty big bet. It's 25% of their starting stacks. I think just calling here is fine. Now, if helmuth had bet say 1,500, Men might have gotten greedy and tried to raise.

So perhaps instead of wondering if Men made a good play or not, the question is whether Helmuth made a good river bet or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im pretty sure Hellmuth bet 2500 on the river and not 5000

[ononimo]

did you question the validity of Ken Jennings's win streak on Jeopardy because of the Charles Van Doren scandal?

Men and Phil have played many times over many years. It IS possible that Men saw something he didn't like and decided to play conservatively and be happy to win with whatever was in the pot.

And if that doesn't satisfy you - that's really too damn bad. You're not going to get any closure on this.

[curtains]

Well I think the reason the WSOP doctored the hands is because they simply didn't know what one of the player's had, yet wanted to show the hand and thus made an educated (yet oftnetimes poor) guess. Perhaps they knew one of the hole cards?

Perhaps that happened here, who knows. I'm not saying it's 100% doctored, but when I saw the hand I thought the chances were pretty good.

[curtains]

Anyway okay, I don't have access to it, but I can't remember whether or not they showed him looking at his hole cards or not. If they showed him looking at 55, then I admit it's very unlikely he didn't have it. The WSOP hands you never actually saw with your own eyes what the players hand.

Still it's crazy the way he played that hand. What is he waiting for? If Hellmuth is so tight that he wont call a raise on the river with a worse hand than a set of 5s there, Men should be doing a lot of raising with bad hands.

[Jedster]

You are right it was 2,500. They showed Men looking at 55 repeatedly. He definitely had 55. (I just watched it again on TiVO.)

Definitely a great play by Men to not raise. He clearly must have had a strong read on the situation that he might be beat and that even if he was ahead there was no way Helmuth woudl pay off a raise with a losing hand.

[West]

IIRC, some of the hands on ESPN may have been wrong because they didn't know one players hand (usually because it was at a table without cameras) and supposedly asked the player what the hand was later. Then maybe the player couldn't remember, remembered wrong, lied, and/or ESPN decided to make it up. It's always possible that the same thing could have happened here if for some reason the cameras didn't pick up his hole cards.