SnG hand, high vs low hand

[Alchemist]

$5 Stars Sit n Go. Most of the players are pretty weak-passive.

I normally hate playing high-only oriented hands in Stud-8, but for some reason I felt compelled to take a stab at this one.

Tournament - 7 Card Stud High-Low - Level VIII (<font color="blue">300/600</font>), Ante 50, Bring-In 100 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

Seat 2: (2417)
Seat 3: (4257)
Seat 5: (1519)
Hero: (1670)
Seat 8: (2137)


3rd Street

Seat 2: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif___brings-in
Seat 3: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Hero: [Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif] Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Seat 8: [5/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls

<font color="red"> Seat 2 was playing a lot of crap hands and often saw a hand to the river but had started tightening up with the higher stakes.

Better for me to complete here? My thinking at the time was to limp and if he (Seat 8) bricks on 4th, bet and he'll probably fold. If I did complete, should he call? Would it be correct him to call a completion with any 3 non-pairing low cards?
</font>
4th Street

Seat 2: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Hero: [Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif] Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks___calls
Seat 8: [5/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets
<font color="red">
He picks up another low card and I brick. I called because I felt my high hand was still good but I didn't feel too comfortable.
</font>
5th Street

Hero: [Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif] Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___calls
Seat 8: [5/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets
<font color="red">
No help for either of us.
</font>
6th Street

Hero: [Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif] Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets
Seat 8: [5/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls
<font color="red">
Well, I'm not really sure why I led out here. I had 620 left in chips and a BB was 600. If I checked, he would surely bet. I'm now getting a scary low board, but there can't be any realistic chance he's folding now. I think, in part, that I bet in order to give him a chance to fold in case the 7 didn't make his low.
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River

Hero: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets 20 and is all-in
Seat 8: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls

Results:

Hero: shows [Qd 4h Qh 7s 3c Ac 2s] (HI: a pair of Queens; LO: 7,4,3,2,A)
Seat 8: shows [5c Ad 3s 8h Js 7c Ts] (HI: high card Ace; LO: 8,7,5,3,A)
Hero: collected 1845 from pot
Hero: collected 1845 from pot
<font color="red">
The low suckout totally caught me off guard. I was more worried about my Queens holding up and not getting eliminated

The strange thing is, if the tournament was down to heads-up, I would have raised my split queens on third without a second thought. </font>

[Wu36]

Completing on 3rd would probably be better, especially with the chance of isolating seat 3 who you're almost assuredly ahead of. And yes, (A5)3 should call your completion, the ace and wheel cards give it decent 2 way potential.
I'd rather bet 5th than 6th, the J is worthless to him and the 7 either paired him or made his low.

Other than that, looks pretty standard. With your stack you have to see this through to the end.

As always, just my opinion, someone better will probably chime in soon.

[Andy B]

If you're going to play tournaments, you should get comfortable playing high hands in this game, because they go up in value considerably when you get short-handed.

I would play this hand, and if you're going to play it, you should come in with a raise. Ideally, you would like to get it heads-up with the Nine.

And A35 isn't folding. You can't be serious, can you? Do you fold hands like this on third street? I mean, if it's three bets and some Deuces and Fours are gone I might muck it, but in this spot you'd have to pry these cards out of my cold, dead fingers. Oh wait, this was on-line. He shouldn't be playing any old three-card low. For a full bet, he should be dumping most Eights and some Sevens, but not an Ace and two wheel cards.

Bet fourth. You're looking at a low board with no straight possibility and two trash hands. Maybe the low hand will raise and knock the other guys out. Checking and calling is yucky.

Bet fifth. You are a decent favorite against a four-card low with an Ace, and this is the sort of thing you should know if you're going to play tournaments or any other stud/8 game where heads-up pots come up with any regularity. With a pretty good three-card low, your edge is even better than usual, and if he doesn't have an Ace, well, that's even better. Get your money in there.

Personally, I wouldn't have bet sixth, but my money would have gone in already anyway. /images/graemlins/grin.gif It looks as though his low has gotten there, and he could have a straight draw. As it turns out, if he has 65 in the hole, you're a decent money favorite. This surprised me, but it makes sense. Any low card gives you a win for low, unless you catch an Eight and he also improves. On the other hand, he only has five straight outs for high and can't win by pairing. And I think that's the worst case. So good bet. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

And good bet on the river /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Aicirt]

First of all, Im not sure why you posted what seat 8's hole cards because you had no idea what they were at the time the hand was played.

Second of all, late in tournaments you need to be raising your big pairs if there are no other doorcards higher than yours. If a low hand decides to come along for the ride, you can really punish them for drawing to a low and bricking. Big pairs (non aces) are typically folds early in tournaments and raises late in tournaments.

3rd is an easy completion. A 9 has limped in already, almost undoubtedly with some drawing hand and you want to make him pay. If you raise here, you will be heads up against that 9 quite often. Obviously since seat 8 has three wheel cards, hes not going anywhere. But for all you know, he just has the 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif door.

Bet 4th. Seats 2 &amp; 3 will almost undobtedly fold and seat 8 has no straight potential.

Bet 5th...seat 8 bricked.

Bet 6th. Still no straight potential for seat 8, and you now have a draw to a better low than he has.

River bet.

Nice scoop.

Aicirt

[Alchemist]

[ QUOTE ]
Big pairs (non aces) are typically folds early in tournaments and raises late in tournaments

[/ QUOTE ]

A concise and very valuble statement. Obviously a big hole currently in my game. I'm more used to playing ring games and my starting hand selections/strategies aren't adjusting to 4-5 handed tournament games. However I feel I play heads-up very well.

In fact just this morning I was re-reading a section in Zee's book where he mentions the value of high hands going up in short-handed games. And it makes perfect sense since the lows need a minimum of 5 cards to make.

I think my apprehension comes from this perspective: If someone has 4 to a low on 4th street and I'm obviously going high, the low hand is either going to make the low and lock up half the pot (and possibly make a straight, etc. in the process), or improve to a high hand with 2 pair, etc. And with the bets so high compared to my stack, I'll be committed by 5th-6th street if continually bet into and I keep catching bricks.

More clearly: it's difficult for me to risk elimination on a pair of queens, even if we're only on 3rd/4th.

But that appears to be unnecessarily paranoid.

So generally speaking with regards to this kind of hand: make the lows keep paying to draw until it looks like they made it, or at least until you're not beaten in both directions. That said, is he correct to keep betting before he's made his low?

[Aicirt]

Yes, a low hand could make a straight or two pair, however, if you do not bet your hand, youre giving the low hand infinite pot odds to draw out on you. Often if he makes two pair, you will be able to beat that. You have to make him pay to draw to his drawing hand.

His bet on 4th was correct because the boards that he was going against were all pretty bad boards. Nobody has shown any strength so far, so he has no reason to think that he could pick the pot up right there with a bet.

If on 5th he catches another low card, you now have to go into check/call mode.

Aicirt