Do you want them to call or not?

[theordinaryboy]

ok bad beat warning post but it has a technical question.

Basically the question is when you know that villain is on a draw do you want him to call your 3/4 pot bet or do you want to bet even more say make a pot bet so that they dont call and you take the pot before the river.

This is my bad beat that got me thinking, ignore the result, the question is what amount do you bet and do you want them to call when they are not getting the correct odds so that you build your stack.

Hero stack = 1500
Villain stack = 3000

Hero = KK
Villain = q7o BB= 30 (on Prima starting stack is 1500)

utg calls 30, hero raises 120, fold, villain calls, four folds, sb calls, bb folds

Flop = k, j, 10 rainbow Pot = 405

sb checks, hero bets 300, villain calls

turn 6c Pot = 1005

Now this was my dilemma, i was almost positive that he had a queen and anything apart from aq and i had him beat bad. So im thinking i want to extract the most from this guy, my stack is 1000 which is the size of the pot, but i feared that he would fold to a pot sized bet and i wanted to double up. My thinking was that im essentially pot committed here whatever i bet on the turn so i wanted to make it a little inviting for him but still not give him the odds so.....

Hero bets 500
villain calls 500

River = the dreaded Ad

So it didnt work the guy hit his straight.

Now the key learning point for me here is in the future do i bet the pot/push and maybe take it down there or do i try and milk him for more.

i think it is important to remember that even though i read him for a str8 draw he could easily have had kj, k10, j10, jj, 10,10, ak etc... and pushing might scare them away while betting 500 on the turn might not.

Anyway this is a serious question as even though bad beats still hurt i feel that i am past the whining phase of bad beats. I dont look for sympathy just opinions.

So as the title asks do you WANT them to call when you charge them high and try and get yourself a few more chips, or do you WANT them to fold so you can take the pot down without the risk

thanks

[pergesu]

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Basically the question is when you know that villain is on a draw do you want him to call your 3/4 pot bet

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course. If you're able to get your opponents to consistently make bad calls, you're going to be a rich man.

The problem is that these bad calls don't turn into $$ for you, they turn into ITM equity. Still, as long as you don't pay off when they hit their draw, you want them to be making improper calls.

It's all about the Fundamental Theorem baby

[Nottom]

First ... push the turn.

You are almost giving him the odds he needs to catch and even though you aren't, they might be close enough for a poor player to gamble with you. On the other hand, pushing makes it clear that they not only won't have the odds, but that they have no implied odds either. Also many players don't want to call "all-ins" with only a draw. Plus if you push and he does call, your edge is big enough that you are happy he did.

Early in a tourney esp agaisnt someone who can bust you, unless you are really giving them terrible odds, you pretty much only want them to fold with the pot this big (its basically for the same reason you don't want to get into coinflips early). Later or as the chip leader, you might want a call as long as the odds they are getting are poor.

[ QUOTE ]
i think it is important to remember that even though i read him for a str8 draw he could easily have had kj, k10, j10, jj, 10,10, ak etc... and pushing might scare them away while betting 500 on the turn might not.

[/ QUOTE ]

95% of SNG players would never consider folding any of these hands.

[shejk]

Your bet is only a possible line if you check fold a nine or an ace. Otherwise he's making a decent call.

I'm pretty certain this bet is not extracting the maximum.

[RobGW]

One thing to consider is the size of the pot. The pot is now as big as your stack. It may be time to stop trying to extract more $$ and take the pot while you can. Also consider that he called your raise. You didn't know he had a q7 but you should have some idea as to how he plays. Fish will be more than happy to call off ALL their money on a draw. If thats the case then you might as well go all in on the turn because youll get called either way and you win more 80% of the time.

[ReDeYES88]

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First and last ... push the turn.

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