Soft play vs. gambling addicts

[jordanx]

You ever play against people with obvious gambling problems? Like, you can just see the hurt in their eyes as they toss away their rent money.

It sucks.

Now I'm not just talking about the run of the mill calling station who goes through a few racks or the lag retiree who spends 20 hours a day in the cardroom. I'm talking Joe Mechanic who's nails are dirty from hard work and just dropped 300$ at the Spanish 21 table, puts chips out like he's giving his children away.

I have to admit I don't check raise/value bet these poor schlubs even if it costs me money and they'll lose it to some dumb LAG anyways.

I just don't have the heart.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
You ever play against people with obvious gambling problems? Like, you can just see the hurt in their eyes as they toss away their rent money.

It sucks.

Now I'm not just talking about the run of the mill calling station who goes through a few racks or the lag retiree who spends 20 hours a day in the cardroom. I'm talking Joe Mechanic who's nails are dirty from hard work and just dropped 300$ at the Spanish 21 table, puts chips out like he's giving his children away.

I have to admit I don't check raise/value bet these poor schlubs even if it costs me money and they'll lose it to some dumb LAG anyways.

I just don't have the heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no place for pity in poker or life.

[kiddj]

[ QUOTE ]
You ever play against people with obvious gambling problems? Like, you can just see the hurt in their eyes as they toss away their rent money.

It sucks.

Now I'm not just talking about the run of the mill calling station who goes through a few racks or the lag retiree who spends 20 hours a day in the cardroom. I'm talking Joe Mechanic who's nails are dirty from hard work and just dropped 300$ at the Spanish 21 table, puts chips out like he's giving his children away.

I have to admit I don't check raise/value bet these poor schlubs even if it costs me money and they'll lose it to some dumb LAG anyways.

I just don't have the heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

It kills me to take their money. You can see that they don't know what they're doing. The more they lose, the more weak/loose they play. They catch their runner runner two-gapped gutshot on the river and STILL don't really seem happy about it. It makes me sad. It kills me to buy expensive beer at the table with the money i just won from them. But, I do it anyway. I say prayers for them to gods i don't believe exist.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I take their money without a second thought.

[Autocratic]

I don't soft play anyone, but I won't sit down with someone like this. I don't look at my life as a 24/7 search for +EV situations. I work, go to school, and have only two or three hobbies I really work at, one of which is poker. If you're a professional and need the money, I can easily see sitting down with someone like this and playing. But I'm just a kid who likes to play, and I don't feel like feeding social problems as I do.

[miajag81]

Am I going to hell because I enjoy taking these people's money even more than that of other people?

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I going to hell because I enjoy taking these people's money even more than that of other people?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but don't worry too much. I plan on getting there first and walking in with a C-4 vest.

Scott

[Wally Weeks]

I feel like a sociopath, but I have a hard time not trying to get someone's money playing poker. I'm by no means a good player (actually I think I'm a crappy player), so they have the right to outplay me and win my money or simply get lucky and vice versa.

My personality is such that I do things to benefit myself first and foremost, unless you are in my circle of family and friends, of course. I've always believed that people should do the same. Believe it or not, I'm a nice and social kind of guy. I try to be fair to people and screw people them over unnecessarily. After all, poker is just a game.

I'd rather win more and larger pots, but maybe that's just me... Perhaps I'm not such a nice guy after all. Hey, if I win, cool...and if these "schlubs" win, then that's cool, too.

Wally

[PairTheBoard]

There are times when Poker is an Ugly Game.

PairTheBoard

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

As I've said before, my job at the poker table is to take others' money, within the bounds of the rules and etiquette of the game. A person who voluntarily sits at the table is fair game. I will do what I can to keep that person at the table until his/her money is gone. Should that same gambling addict come to my office, I would do everything I could to help him/her stay away from the tables. Both actions are ethical in their respective contexts.

[The Goober]

I think there are lots of times in life where we spent money to feel a little bit better about ourselves, and I don't think that's a problem as long as you can afford it and realize how much you are spending.

But you should know that when you softplay him you are doing it for your own sake, not for his. He probably won't realize he was softplayed, and even if he did, its not likely to make him feel any better. As for the money, the bet or two you save him isn't going to matter one way or the other.

[Little Fishy]

to expand on this look at it as doing him a service... seriously...

there are four (some say 5) stages of gambling addiction... I'll elaborate if I get requests
1. The Big WIn/ winning stage
2. losing stage/starts becoming aloof and getting loans
3. desperation (more sever form of 2)
4. Hopeless ness/ rock bottom

after these stages comes recovery... i'm pretty sure you haev to go through these stages unless you get torn away from all forms of gambling by force... so the thing is by taking his $$ you're quickening his journy towards recovery... on the other hand thought there is a much higher suicide rate among PGs in the later stages, so you might be quickenign his journy to the grave...

i personally just try to avoid playing with these types... but i play for fun more than for $$

[mindflayer]

YOu are in the wrong game if you feel bad taking the money.
Try being the ping pong ball picker in bingo instead.
oops maybe you would feel bad doing that too because you realize the return on these poor seinor's $2 card is about $1.

[jordanx]

I don't really look at this as a money issue.

When the problem gamblers sit down, even the fish perk up, anticipating the payout. The addicts don't play poker, they are only compelled to leave the table without money.

They are weak and I can't seem to pick on the weak. The same reason that if I'm playing basketball with a retarded kid, I'm not gonna steal the ball from him every time or swat all his shots into the stands.

It's not challenging and not much fun.

[IShark]

Well if you don't soft play against them you are taking money from mentally ill people. If that doesn't trouble you, ethically, why not try to scam schizophernics out of their money? No ethical difference. Some "morals" you professional players have.

[texasholdemnut]

I once watched a kid, couldn't have been 19 years old, bet into a guy who just kept raising him on every street, it was obvious to the whole table that the guy had a flush, but this kid just kept pushing and pushing, the look on his face was one of misery when the guy flipped over his hearts. All I could think of was I hoped I got isolated with this kid in a big pot with the nuts.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
Well if you don't soft play against them you are taking money from mentally ill people. If that doesn't trouble you, ethically, why not try to scam schizophernics out of their money? No ethical difference. Some "morals" you professional players have.

[/ QUOTE ]

No ethical difference, eh? Should I also not take money from the drunkards who play, since one of them may have the mental illness of alcoholism?

I've read your other posts. Coming onto a poker site and bashing the players with your petty arguments is quite pathetic.

[Mark1808]

Everyone plays poker for differant reasons, some play strictly to win, some to socialize, some to experience the thrill of gambling and some actually enjoy the pain inflicted on them from losing. If you feel guilty taking a suckers money than by all means lighten up if it makes you feel better. I personally do not believe you are helping the guy one bit though. There are plenty of other ways to help the less fortunate in life than by not check raising in a poker game.

[Jeffage]

I play everyone as hard as possilbe. Even if the person told me their buyin was theie last money in the world, I'd still checkraise them at every opportunity. Remember, by sitting in the game...THEY ARE TRYING TO TAKE YOUR MONEY. Let them get help on their own time, but don't expect mercy at the table.

Jeff

[IShark]

[ QUOTE ]
Coming onto a poker site and bashing the players with your petty arguments is quite pathetic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trying to make a living through non-productive work and by preying on people with mental illnesses is beyond pathetic and subhuman.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Coming onto a poker site and bashing the players with your petty arguments is quite pathetic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trying to make a living through non-productive work and by preying on people with mental illnesses is beyond pathetic and subhuman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you answer my initial question? Should I not take the drunkards money since he may be an alcoholic? Also, what percentage of the populace does "productive" work, as you call it?

[IShark]

If you can't answer your own questions you are pretty hopeless. Bye!

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't answer your own questions you are pretty hopeless. Bye!

[/ QUOTE ]

Great response. Keep up the truly noble quest of trolling as the beacon of morality.

[IShark]

And you keep telling yourself that anyone who does not beleive that pro poker players are earning their money in an ethical sense is just a troll. No one really thinks that. Keep telling yourself that enough times that you beleive it. Hang out on this board and get other pros to tell you the same thing if you still don't beleive it yourself. Maybe if enough pros says to themselves and each other enough times it will magically make it true.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
And you keep telling yourself that anyone who does not beleive that pro poker players are earning their money in an ethical sense is just a troll. No one really thinks that. Keep telling yourself that enough times that you beleive it. Hang out on this board and get other pros to tell you the same thing if you still don't beleive it yourself. Maybe if enough pros says to themselves and each other enough times it will magically make it true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite frankly, I do not care whether other people think my mode of living is ethical. For the most part, poker is a level playing field: if you are skilled, you win, if you are not, you lose. In that regard, I think it is actually quite beautiful. I would think many others here agree.

My main point in posting something in response to you was the fact that you were equating taking money from a troubled gambler to stealing from a schizophrenic. Conning money from schizophrenics is probably considered criminal; do you think playing poker and occasionally taking money from gambling addicts is criminal?

[LuvDemNutz]

There is nothing wrong with the strong taking from the weak. It happens everywhere in life and in nature.

Besides, I don't think these people feel bad for me when they hit runner runner miracle cards to take my stack.

[IShark]

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with the strong taking from the weak. It happens everywhere in life and in nature.


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that the strong are so much stronger than the weak and that we must design society to protect the weak.

Otherwise the strong gain an advantage over the weak, and are able to exploit it more and more easily to widen the gap. Anyone who plays strategy games (like Age of Empires) knows that there are these turning points after which your slightly weaker opponent is basically hosed. The strength gap then grows at a geometric rate.

In society this manifests itself in anti-trust laws and public education and such. Without laws to protect the weak, things quickly degenerate to unacceptable concentrations of power.

Professional poker players think they are "strong" just because of the wimpy opposition they make a point of putting themselves up against.

If you extended their self-proclaimed "live and let die" philosophy to all of society they would be all be serfs in a feudal system.

Pro poker players are not the strong in our society. They are just lucky that our society is more tolerant of their weakness than they are the weaknesses of their opponents.

[IShark]

As even easier counter-example: by your reasoning there would be nothing wrong with 20 year old thug (the strong) whapping an 80 year lady (the weak) over the head taking her purse, right?

How about people think for about 30 seconds to try and thinking up counter examples to their own ridiculous statements, so I don't have to do it for them?

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
In society this manifests itself in anti-trust laws and public education and such. Without laws to protect the weak, things quickly degenerate to unacceptable concentrations of power.


[/ QUOTE ]

There's no anti-trust laws in poker.

The object of poker is to take as much of your opponents' money as possible. Everyone knows this when they sit down. I feel sorry for people with a gambling problem, and I'd rather they didn't sit at my table - but I'll take their money if they choose to try and take mine.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
As even easier counter-example: by your reasoning there would be nothing wrong with 20 year old thug (the strong) whapping an 80 year lady (the weak) over the head taking her purse, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but your analogies are ridiculous.

[IShark]

Here's the original claim:

"There is nothing wrong with the strong taking from the weak. It happens everywhere in life and in nature."

No qualifiers or nothing, so there is no analogy being made. Duh!

[IShark]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no anti-trust laws in poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong: anti-collusion.

Bye-bye, thanks for playing and have a nice day.

[nycplayer]

Playing poker is no different than playing the stock market, ethically speaking. You'll find some folks who melt down on the trading floor as well. Remember the British guy who lost $20 billion?
Lions hunt the weakest, slowest gazelles - is nature unethical?
A fair poker game probably is a more ethical way to take someone's money than most professions, especially politicians and religious leaders.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's no anti-trust laws in poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong: anti-collusion.

Bye-bye, thanks for playing and have a nice day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we have the beginnings of an uber-troll here.

[reddred]

Don't forget too easily those times you get sucked out on with a 2 outer, and lose a big pot to some idiot who had no business being in the hand. Lots of times, those are the addicts.....overplaying draws, playing any 2 suited cards...b/c they want the action and are desparate for a win. Then everyone says this is the guy you want to have around, cuz he'll make mistakes, and more often than not, your better hand will hold up. Bottom line, I will never slow play anyone at a table....the way I see it, it's payback for all the ridiculous suckouts....

[jordanx]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget too easily those times you get sucked out on with a 2 outer, and lose a big pot to some idiot who had no business being in the hand. Lots of times, those are the addicts.....overplaying draws, playing any 2 suited cards...b/c they want the action and are desparate for a win. Then everyone says this is the guy you want to have around, cuz he'll make mistakes, and more often than not, your better hand will hold up. Bottom line, I will never slow play anyone at a table....the way I see it, it's payback for all the ridiculous suckouts....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not talking about the run of the mill gambler. These are the people who you make your money off of; run of the mill fish; suckers.

Problem gamblers are a different breed. In Super System, Caro talks about why people are consistent losers in poker and yet they still come back. He states "They play to ease the pain."

Kiddj touched on it here:

[ QUOTE ]
You can see that they don't know what they're doing. The more they lose, the more weak/loose they play. They catch their runner runner two-gapped gutshot on the river and STILL don't really seem happy about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

These guys cannot leave the table with money, their drive to play is a sick and horrible compulsion. They are full of pain and sitting at the poker table doesn't ease that pain, it makes it worse.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
you should know that when you softplay him you are doing it for your own sake, not for his. He probably won't realize he was softplayed, and even if he did, its not likely to make him feel any better. As for the money, the bet or two you save him isn't going to matter one way or the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put.

[ApolloQuiet]

Play online, that way you don't have to associate a face with the player. Although I sometimes feel really bad for that chick that always wears the yellow shirt in the 9 seat. I've seen her win sometimes, I would think she could buy a new shirt.

[sandsmarc]

My job is to take all the addicts money as soon as possible. That way he will hit rock bottom quicker and either get help or kill himself. The world is a better place either way.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to make a living through non-productive work and by preying on people with mental illnesses is beyond pathetic and subhuman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, 50% of people earn money from non productive work, I do even.

Mack

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As even easier counter-example: by your reasoning there would be nothing wrong with 20 year old thug (the strong) whapping an 80 year lady (the weak) over the head taking her purse, right?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No offense, but your analogies are ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fail to see a difference, except one is against the law, this is a small point and hardly seems important.

Mack

[reddred]

I hear what your saying. Maybe this is more easy to see in a B&M room. I play online, and although you do occasionally see 'compulsive gambler' type betting tactics and decision making', it's not as obvious whats really going on. Matbe the dude has lost a ton online, maybe he's just a 15/30 player whose had a bad run and dropped to 1/2 to blow off some steam. Maybe the feeling is different in a B&M room, but online line it's very detached.

[MRBAA]

during the hand, I'm not softplaying anyone. But after the hand, I'll give advice IF ASKED. At the club I play in NY there is a horrible hooked gambler who ALWAYS loses. He's also a dealer, and he told me one night that he wasn't playing any more. I told him I thought that was a really good decision for him. Of course, I've played with him several times since than...and happily taken his money. But if he again tells me he's quitting, or asks my advice, I wouldn't hesitate to affirm that he should not play.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Except that the old lady has not voluntarily chosen to enter a competitive arena with the 20-year old thug.

Except, who defines who is and is not a "gambling addict?"

If poker is legal as a game of skill, and the purpose is for the more skilled to win from the less skilled, who becomes the judge of who is too mentally or psychologically incompetent to sit at the table.

You're comparing a very black-and-white situation to one that is very, very, gray.

regardless of the addiction, the primary person responsible to control the addict his the addict himself.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

This is the most reasonable post in this entire thread. I'd go so far as to say that if you softplay the guy, you're enabling his behavior.

[marsvolta619]

I didn't read all the posts here, but I feel compelled to share my thoughts. A lot of interesting opinions, here's mine... I play poker both for fun and for extra money. What I do win, it is usually going towards building my future. I'm a student, going to get engaged soon(provided the lakes stay fishy), and I also have a job that I hate going to. The more money I can take from people the better. In the least selfish way possible, I want myself and my fiance to live the best life we can. As long as I am getting this money legally, my conscience doesn't get in the way.

[Derek in NYC]

If the situation were reversed, these people would rape your mercilessly.

[QuadsOverQuads]

You don't do them any favors by softplaying them. If anything, you're making the experience LESS painful than it should be, and making it easier for them to maintain illusions about their own skill. The best thing that could happen to these people is for them to genuinely realize just how BAD AT THIS GAME they are, and for this to motivate them to either improve or quit. Softplaying, by contrast, is what shill-players do to keep these players at the table. Sadly, it works.


q/q

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the most reasonable post in this entire thread. I'd go so far as to say that if you softplay the guy, you're enabling his behavior.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you are saying, but I don't need money this badly, I can walk away from this game, if that cuts my expectation so be it, I also need to be able to sleep at night, picking on weak people just isn't my thing.

Mack

[Jeffage]

Picking on weak people is what poker's all about. It's an integral part of the game.

Jeff

[rgschackelford]

Hello sir,

I understand you plea for human decency, and this is one of the hardest parts of poker. But, at the table, there are no friends or family. You are there to win chips, not friends. It sounds evil, but you must check your heart and emotions at the door. It hurts to see it happen, but it's the truth of the matter.

Furthermore, if he doesn't lose his money to you, he will lose it to someone else or to the casino. He going to give it up anyway, so why not let him give it up to you.

Have you ever heard the statement, "You should be willing to bust your own Grandmother, if the opportunity arises at a poker table."? It may sound crass, but don't ask, "Should I be taking this poor shlub's money?" Ask yourself, "If this person sat down at a poker table (or walked into a casino for that matter), then he knows the risk before he plays, and he's saying, "I have the money to lose." If he doesn't and loses it, that's his fault. It sounds nothing short of evil, but that's the way it goes.

Yours in darkness /images/graemlins/smile.gif,

Rusty G. Schackelford

[mackthefork]

Its different, this is like offering a drink to an alcoholic, sure he can say no, but why offer.

Mack

[Snoogins47]

I have a friend who, as an unemployed student, would burn through three figures worth of money very frequently, playing... $10 max buy in NL games that my hometown buds and I will play to fart around.

I would pull him aside and tell him he shouldn't play. I'd tell him that he shouldn't gamble with money he doesn't have. I don't want to play him, I don't want him to play, he shouldn't play, and I make no secret about it. Once he's at the table, I'm not going to ease up.

Poker can definitely get to be an ugly game. For me, it seems their battles are really fought and won/lost away from the poker table. Once he's bought in and made the decision to play, the only thing altering my play against him will do is make him less likely to bust, and more likely to NOT get the picture.

This is slightly different than the anonymous face you think is most likely addicted, but it goes along with my general philosophy on it, I think. If this kid's issue with gambling ever gets out of hand (luckily he's either kept it in check, run good, or just never gambled for all that much money yet) I'd gladly chip in a good chunk of change for him to get help, but I wouldn't let up with my value bets.