SS river play general concepts?

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I feel this is the weakest part of my game at the moment. Few general questions. I would appreciate general answers or conceptual ones.

1) Value betting on the river (without the nuts)- Gah, this infuriates me. I consistently feel like I'm in one of those situations where the only hand that will call me is a better one, and he'll raise. Then I get put in the horribly ugly situations where you're ALMOST sure you're beat but the pot odds are strong.

A) It's been my experience that if you have a strong but vulnerable hand that it usually ends up you betting PF/Flop/Turn nice and aggressively, and you'll end up with a guy calling you all the way. When he checks to you on the river 95% of the time checking right back seems correct to me. I feel they either missed their hand, were slowplaying the whole way, or hit their draw. Comments?

B) Now in first position I feel lost here. Checking the river is a HUGE sign of weakness. However all the conditions from A still apply, putting me in what I feel is the worst possible place. I know this is tremendously weak but I've been defaulting to checking here and inducing a bluff / gauging my opponents strength by the size of his bet. I know there is a much better way, help!

2) Bluffing the river. Is it pointless? I feel like the only better hand that will fold is something like a bottom pair 4 flush, and it's so expensive to place a meaningful bet here.

A) This is the only position where I've wondering if a mini-bet actually is a good play. What do you think? I haven't used it but I've noticed that when weaker players do it what usually ends up happening is a worse player might call with the worst hand / not raise with a better. Think there is any point to this? It seems incredibly lame, but the cost / benefit ratio seems good enough, obviosuly it won't work on any player with a clue.


3) Finally, what do with a great hand when it looks like a flush / straight draw just completed on the river. Again, I feel like it's one of those places where betting can only be called by a better hand. The problem is checking may be worse. I'm at a big loss here.


I really appreciate any thoughts. Gogo 2+2 thinktank.

[spoohunter]

Some good concepts I'm going to take them one at a time :
#1) Value betting the river :
This is a must. I remember a while back reading in fimbuls post about how on the river, either you or your opponent has 100% equity. You have to exploit this. What this really comes down to is hand reading.

Note how you think bluffing is pointless (any hand calls) but that value betting is pointless (no one but a better hand calls). Put your opponent on a solid range of hands. Figure out what he has. Bet accordingly.

A) If you put your opponent on a draw, by all means check the river, especially if you're first to act. Many times you'll be in situations where it's clear your opponent either has all the marbles, or none at all. But never forget the situations when you have to SELL your hand, because your opponents is clear. AK on the A72 flop is a great example. Often your opponent will have an ace with a worse kicker. Make sure to value bet these situations, especially against weaker opposition.

B) Allowing your opponents bet size to distingush their hand is horrible poker. While some opponents are this transparent, even the worst usually have the same sized bets for bluffs, the nuts, semi bluffs. What is more often the case is they will check raise the turn, or bet the flop check the turn, etc. to tell you their hand. Seldom is it as easy as the size of the bet.

2) Don't bluff calling stations. One classic bluff situation against a SOLID PLAYER, that WON'T PAY YOU OFF, is when you're on a straight draw, and the flush card comes.

Do not just bluff the river for no reason. Your hand should CLEARLY represent the hand you are trying to bluff, and you should ONLY TRY TO BLUFF OPPONENTS WHO ARE GOOD HAND READERS. Or weak tights ; )

A) Min raises are for the fish.

3) Blocking bets are good against fishy opponents, but good opponents see through them and raise with enough frequency to make most situations unprofitable. Pay close attention, see how your opponents play completed flushes. Some will allow you to "look them up" for cheap enough or bluff often enough that you don't have to fold. Tougher opponents don't allow you that luxury and you are put to tough decisions.

If you notice opponents betting big on scare cards, start semibluffing them more. It really takes the wind out of their sails.

Best of luck, and keep enjoying the metagame.