checked to you...

[joker122]

party 10/20 6 handed

you raise A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif after 2 limpers and both blinds call.

the flop is Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

it's checked to you. what is your action, and why?

[BottlesOf]

Last week I was betting. Today I'm checking.

I'm tweaking my game and trying different things, hence the change.

With that many people and a relatively coordinated board with a high card on it, a bet is not going to take it down right there--very rarely. I also don't think you have enough of a hand where investing a bet in such a multiway pot is worthwhile, I don't see that bet helping you to win a pot you otherwise wouldn't, often enough. But honestly--it depends on the table and your image. Maybe you're especially feared and will likely thin the field? In that case, I bet.

[joker122]

talk about this.

[BottlesOf]

I did. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[joker122]

don't make me beg.

how the hell have you been, btw?

[BottlesOf]

Re-read my first post in this thread.

[joker122]

re-read my 3rd post in this thread.

[BottlesOf]

(took it to the pm)

[Danenania]

Easy check imo. Give me a bd flush draw and a bet starts to look better.

P.S. For details read JBB's first post in this thread.

[wheelz]

If I get check-raised I feel fine getting rid of this hand. Having said that, I think it's certainly worth a bet to see if you can take this down without an effort. There's a good chace this flop totally missed the limpers.

The real issue here I think comes when you start to think about the metagame considerations. Once smart players start bluff raising you a lot here you're in a real tough spot with your ace highs. I've tried to combat this by simply tightening up a bit pretflop (I could've used a little tightening I think anyways), and by just calling the flop and waiting to raise the turn a lot with big hands. I don't get gaybet into on the turn much anymore.

[btspider]

when we check the flop and catch a non-heart T on the turn.. what's our action facing say a bet and a call on the turn?

[wheelz]

I think it has to be call?

Maybe raise, fold to 3-bet take free showdown?

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
If I get check-raised I feel fine getting rid of this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on the action, folding for 1 more SB could be a significant mistake since you will be getting atleast 13 to 1 after being checkraised. That's enough to spike an A on the turn, plus you have to figure a T is good some percentage of the time. Still it's hard to tell how many outs are clean and whether the implied odds are positive or negative. This is one of the main reasons I don't like betting: being c/r'd sets you up to make both bad calls and bad folds, whereas if you check the turn and hit and A or T, you will get to see everyone act again and be much more confident as to where you're at.

[ALL1N]

I'd bet this most of the time. Q72 is a pretty choice flop to pick up.

[joker122]

it's a decent flop, but what is my fold equity here? very minimal, wouldn't you say?

[wheelz]

I know what you're saying, and I rarely fold the flop to the cr, and I probably wouldn't here. But I'd feel fine folding the turn unimproved.

I realize betting here always puts you in a tough spot, but if the turn blanks and a limper decides to take a stab at the pot with his 89 spades you've just cost yourself a whole pot. I think putting yourself in such a tough spot on the flop has to be better than potentially conceding the pot to a worse hand uncontested.

[billyjex]

[ QUOTE ]
it's a decent flop, but what is my fold equity here? very minimal, wouldn't you say?

[/ QUOTE ]

we might be value betting the best hand?

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
it's a decent flop, but what is my fold equity here? very minimal, wouldn't you say?

[/ QUOTE ]

If this hand was against 2 opponents, you'd bet for sure because you know you're ahead with good-ace-high so often (let's say a rough figure of ~50%). Now theoretically speaking, adding 2 more opponents squares the likelihood of being behind at this stage (excluding bunching and all the other variables in this generalisation). So if you were winning 3-way at ~50%, then you'd be winning 5-way at ~25%. This is pretty crude, but I just want to demonstrate that additional players don't ruin your chances of being ahead completely.

Since your ace high is good here a small but non-insignificant amount of the time, you must bet. By betting, you let people fold their undercard 6 outers, a fold which would be incorrect if they could see your cards. I don't think you pick up this pot on the flop all that often, but getting headsup or even taking a free card multiway on the turn are both circumstances much more favourable than facing a bet on the turn after checking behind.

Also, at this stage it's quite likely that there is no queen out (I'd say at least half of the Q's would have bet), so you can probably estimate about 4 clean outs (the flush draw lowers it), adding value to your bet should you be behind.

[Lmn55d]

this doesn't take into account the amount of time you pay 2sb to see the turn when you bet and are checkraised (fairly often I would say).

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]
this doesn't take into account the amount of time you pay 2sb to see the turn when you bet and are checkraised (fairly often I would say).

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet out on this board, I would fold to a c/r (metagame considerations aside).

Then again, I'm a silly noob.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
this doesn't take into account the amount of time you pay 2sb to see the turn when you bet and are checkraised (fairly often I would say).

[/ QUOTE ]

So what?? I'm not doing any detailed analysis of all the outcomes of betting, I'm just emphasising that having 4 opponents doesn't completely ruin you here.

[Lmn55d]

yea , I agree that it is reasonably close to a bet. I agree with the poster who said a backdoor flush draw would push it more to a bet. If there was no flush draw I think I'd also bet.

[Trix]

Depends on your opponents, if you can fold a better hand and people are supercheck-raise happy, then betting seem to have good odds.

If people will play aggro at you or chase you down with any pair, then I´m fine with checking, you dont have to try and win every pot.

I think I check more here than I bet.

[sthief09]

I check and I don't think it's particularly close... you have one semi-clean over to the Q and I'm very very cautious with overs when there are 4 others in.

[wheelz]

Wow, I didn't notice the "and both blinds call" part. I thought we were just against 2 limpers.

Against 4 people I check this every time.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you pick up this pot on the flop all that often, but getting headsup or even taking a free card multiway on the turn are both circumstances much more favourable than facing a bet on the turn after checking behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

I always feel like a donk when I bet this, but I still generally do, and for the same reasons ALL1N does.