Dealing with the later & larger min-raise. [Archive]

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NoBrains

05-06-2005, 06:33 PM

UTG is big stack and has been playing most hands. Only read is that he will call with junk and do about anything with a hand. No real feel for MP1.

I just posted t100 in BB, so it's half again to call, and although I could let it go on a poor flop, it looks like a somewhat committed situation at this point. A fold is tolerable, but weak with T's. The min-raise from the big stack doesn't tell me anything. The call from MP1...? Seems like fold or push to me?

Party Poker ($10+1) No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t2183)
MP1 (t1080)
MP2 (t815)
CO (t1075)
Button (t1207)
SB (t600)
Hero (t645)
UTG (t395)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t200, MP1 calls t200, 4 folds, Hero...?

Spladle Master

05-06-2005, 06:58 PM

Stop 'n go.

tjh

05-06-2005, 07:00 PM

The caller MP1 has me more nervous than the big stack. If you have any read on MP1 that would lead you to believe that he would fold to an all-in from you then all-in is the thing to do.

Since you have a read on the big stack and he has been in a lot of hands and MP1 plays directly after him then perhaps MP1 has gotten tired of getting pushed around and lowered their calling standards in order to see a flop. If so then a push would either cause them to fold or cause them to stay with a hand that you could beat.

I imagine that if MP1 stays in you are looking at a coin toss. Add the big stack's chances of connecting and you might be beat here.

The tough decision is that you may not get much of a better hand to play before you are blinded out. How has the blind stealin been going ? If it has been good then you may think about folding here. How is your table image ? If it is tight then I would push.

What would I do ?
Push, but that is me and I often push into big pairs so I am not lucky doing it but I continue just the same.

My advice...
PUSH, but I wish they were J or Q. And I am hoping that one of them folds. Push on the BB means big pair if they know what they are doing then they should know that.

Curious to see what others would do.

--
tjh

shejk

05-06-2005, 07:02 PM

Yeah, I like the stop n go as well. I might avoid doing it on some flops though.. say two overcards or an ace.

spentrent

05-06-2005, 07:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I like the stop n go as well. I might avoid doing it on some flops though.. say two overcards or an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm less confident about a stop and go with two opponents in the hand. I'd rather have just one.

If you push the flop, the villains are getting better than 2 to 1 from the pot to call with two cards to come.

tjh

05-06-2005, 07:09 PM

I would NOT stop-n-go.

Your best fold equity is a push right now. Big stack may not want to play two players as he may have a relatively weak hand. He may already be concerned about the first caller and your push will force him to decide if he wants to risk his hand for a decent pile of chips against possibly two players. I like the idea of a stop-n-go for fancy play but I do not think it adds any more value than an all-in. We assume that they have drawing hands like A? and if they hit your hand goes down in value. Bet now while you are most likely the best hand. QQ, KK, AA would have raised from MP1. Big stack has shown himself as playing weak hands.

spentrent

05-06-2005, 07:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your best fold equity is a push right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. If Hero pushes his last 545 into the pot right now the raiser is getting 2.8 to 1 to call. Yeah, the action isn't closed, but if he convinces himself to fold, then the other guy is getting the same bargain and he'd have to be a fool to pass it up.

If he's gonna cold-call a raise why's he gonna fold given a 2.8 to 1 closed pot?

I think Hero's fold equity preflop is zero.

NoBrains

05-09-2005, 02:26 PM

Yes, I was following a similar line of thought.

It would be difficult to make a Stop-n-go work in this situation. If I call I’m down to t445, with both of the (current) players easily on top of me. If either come in with a big bet on the flop, I’m stuck in a position of having to call (no power), or, if I fold after having made that preflop call, I’ve given away 1/3 of my stack and looking for lucky survival cards.

I come back to feeling a bit stuck. On the one hand the Tens might or might not be the best hand I’m gonna see. On the other hand I’ve got a raise that is a min-raise, and a call of a min raise, that isn’t really telling me a lot. If I push, my stack wont get much respect and if either player holds something like Ax or Kx or even possible Qx, (or worse?) they will most likely feel inclined to play it out.

So, perhaps fall back on the concept that if there is a raise and a call (or re-raise) in front, you must have an even better hand to stay in. So I’m asking myself is Tens good enough to risk my life in this turny, or should I look at those two betters and say, hmmm, bettor to wait for a better spot?

pooh74

05-09-2005, 02:34 PM

Stop and go is awful here...just plain bad IMO. Youve got a really good shot at getting the first raiser to fold...not just bc of the FE that you present with your stack...but also the added element of him facing another raise.

You want to be HU here and pushing is the only way to achieve that...that said folding is out of the question.

Easy push...I dont think there's much to this hand. Not to sound cocky but I wish all decisions were this easy.

Unparagoned

05-09-2005, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wish all decisions were this easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm not altogether clear on what has everyone worried. We're talking about a min-raise from a loose player who, assuming he hasn't found himself looking at a big pair, we are either way ahead of or in a coinflip with (I'm better on the former). The cold-call sucks, but honestly guys, how many times have you seen that cold call made? I see it all the time and when I come over the top with a similar stack, one of three things happen 1) everyone folds, 2) one of the other players puts their stack in and it's a marginal situation I'm either way ahead or a little ahead and 3) one of those guys was playing with AA or KK. (3) happens, accept it, move on. It's not as if you are particularly close to moneying at this point anyways. You've probably got the best hand and despite the earlier analysis claiming that you have no folding equity, this is not true in practice. People will fold here alot and even when they don't you win a good deal of the time. I push this without even blinking.

flyby4553

05-09-2005, 03:12 PM

I think the dillema here isnt as easy as pooh says but at the same time I dont think its that hard to work out.
You have three options. Stop and Go, fold, push. Given your stack size and position your not likely to get a better shot than this hand so folding seems to be out of the question. If the initial raiser has been raising a lot I dont think you really need to worry about him and a push should get him to fold facing a call and a reraise. So pushing leaves you heads up with the caller which seems like what you want in this situation.
As opposed to a stop and go where you are going to basically be in the same situation but you allow UTG a chance to hit his overcard he probably would have folded if you just pushed and if he misses you dont get any extra chips from him. A stop and go in this situation isnt going to push anyone off a hand which would beat you and it's going to give people a free shot at outdrawing you, seems like a bad idea to me.

Tilt

05-09-2005, 03:19 PM

I think you should push. Its possible that MP1 is playing a smaller PP. You cannot stop and go against 2 players. One of the will likely spike something to call you with and then you are in serious trouble.

That being said, you have very little fold equity here. UTG+1 might fold, but if he is as loose as you say then he will take his KJ into a three way. You might scare off MP1 and get HU on the hand. But even so, its not a bad idea to push here....the possibility of shared overcards by UTG+1 and MP make for a very positive expectation PP vs. overcard situation in most cases. Waiting for a better spot with your stack at 545 after posting SB and only 7 deals to go until your fold equity is definitely gone does not seem smart to me.

mjm

05-09-2005, 03:21 PM

I would push without question. Stop & Go seems terrible, you are allowing A-xs, K-xs, the likely holding of UTG hit his overcard, he is likely to fold with a player to act behind him. MP1 would have raised with A-A or K-K with so many players to act behind. The range of hands it leaves definetly calls for you to push.

swarm

05-09-2005, 03:27 PM

Your 8 handed and extremely shortstacked... Is there even a question here, you push and hope for the best. Over time this is going to be a + EV push.

By Pushing you force Big Stack to make a decision... Chances are he might want to single this hand out and will push thus pushing MP1 out of the hand. If he is weak he might fold. You have a good chance at getting heads up by pushing which is ideal. If someone has JJ or better (unlikely but happens) then so be it.

Anything other than a push would be criminal in my opinion.

NoBrains

05-09-2005, 04:45 PM

After a handful of seconds thought, I pushed my stack. I was hoping to isolate and coin-flip and ace or best case get over a smaller PP. In the end, I think this is one of those “*it happens” situations. Turns out neither player was going anywhere with their hands.

I believe I played this turney well, but it was quite likely I let this one get away much earlier.

Thank you for your various posts, they have given me some additional ideas to think about.

~~~~~~

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t2183)
MP1 (t1080)
MP2 (t815)
CO (t1075)
Button (t1207)
SB (t600)
Hero (t645)
UTG (t395)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t200, MP1 calls t200, 4 folds, Hero raises to t645, UTG+1 calls t445, MP1 calls t445.

Flop: (t1985) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets t100, MP1 raises t435,UTG+1 calls t335.

Turn: (t2420) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)

River: (t2420) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)

Final Pot: t2420

Results in white below: 
Hero has Td Ts (two pair, tens and eights).
UTG+1 has Ks Kh (two pair, kings and eights).
MP1 has Jd Js (two pair, jacks and eights).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins t2420.