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CardSharpCook
05-06-2005, 03:07 PM
SNG. You've gotten to heads-up against an opponent. The blinds just went up to X. At X, do you never call PF, do you only go AI or fold? What is X? Can there always be some play? Are there some hands you might just call with or just min-raise with? Does your opponent matter?

There was a brief debate about this in the MTT forum in which my answer to this question was widely disputed. I'm trying to fix a hole in my HU game. If you've read that thread in MTT, please don't respond here - I'd really like non-biased SNG pros to answer.

Thanks for helping.

CSC

Scuba Chuck
05-06-2005, 03:24 PM
I really want to read your original thread first before responding, but I won't.

[ QUOTE ]
do you never call PF

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to this is how well do you know your opponent? If your opponent will let you see a flop without reraising (unless you're trapping), then I will complete.

If your opponent will only call your AI's with only premium hands, then a strategy to just raise/push could be effective.

Besides the blinds, you also have to consider stacksizes relative to each other. For example I could break down my strategy by the following:

I have 75% of the chips
I have 25% of the chips
Chipstacks are equal

IMO, the best strategy is dependent on the situation which includes, relative stack sizes, blinds, and opponent.

[ QUOTE ]
The blinds just went up to X. At X, do you never call PF, do you only go AI or fold? What is X?

[/ QUOTE ]

When discussing HU games, as the blinds increase to greater than 5% of the total tournament chips, the AI or fold can be an effective strategy.

[ QUOTE ]
Can there always be some play? Are there some hands you might just call with or just min-raise with? Does your opponent matter?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, there is no one answer to this. But the most important factor is your opponent.

beeyjay
05-06-2005, 03:31 PM
some interesting stuff here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1328505&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1)

the shadow
05-06-2005, 03:39 PM
Also take a look at poincaraux's An opponent-centric solution to the heads-up jam or fold problem (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=220 3844&PHPSESSID=&fpart=).

The Shadow (who doesn't know the answer but figures that it's something like once the blinds get big enough or you think the villian is a better post-flop player than you)

Nottom
05-06-2005, 03:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
some interesting stuff here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1328505&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

People love to link to this, but I'm not sure why since no one ever actually completed the experiment and posted any results.

Of course this could mean that someone did do it and the results were too good to share ... hmm.

Tilt
05-06-2005, 03:45 PM
If X > 10% of min or my opponents stack, its always, always, always AI or fold. I use the Eastbay formula, and I have to tell you, it works really well.

If its less, then it becomes opponent and hand dependent. I don't think you could construct a simple rule.

Will your opponent let you see flops in unraised pots?
Is your opponent very good at HU aggressive play?
Can you get him to fold easily on the flop or turn with any two?
Is your starting hand one that could be a useful trapping hand against a reliably aggressive opponent?
Is your hand a monster, and your opponent a bit over aggressive, such that a limp/reraise might work?
What range of hands will your opponent call with preflop, against what kind of raise?

All are considerations, there are probably many more...

shejk
05-06-2005, 03:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The blinds just went up to X. At X, do you never call PF, do you only go AI or fold? What is X?

[/ QUOTE ]

When discussing HU games, as the blinds increase to greater than 5% of the total tournament chips, the AI or fold can be an effective strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm applying the 10bb rule incorrectly, but I'm playing roughly after that headsup as well. So with equal stacks I'm only pushing from level 8 and on.

beeyjay
05-06-2005, 03:52 PM
it was never completed but i think some of the theories buried in there are worth something. The idea dali thought it could be a better strat for him (him being much better player than I) makes me give it some weight as a reasonable option. Irie also hypothesizes that his push everything results will be higher than his normal play results. I know eastbay used to talk about the percentages but I couldnt find any of those posts quickly and don't want to misquote him.

Personally I feel like pushing a lot when the blinds are 200/400 is a decent option as there are very few instances where this is not 10% of either my or my opponents stacks and if you raise 3bb and he pushes laying it down doesn't really add up.

tech
05-06-2005, 03:56 PM
HU at the end of a tournament with high blinds, there are two strategies to follow:

(1) Fold a lot.

(2) Anything else.

The first strategy will get you killed, and with the second you will win in close proportion to your percentage of chips. This is basically straight from TPFAP.

tminus
05-06-2005, 04:13 PM
thanks, ive always loved the stove and its great to to see the spreadsheet

Misfire
05-06-2005, 04:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
SNG. You've gotten to heads-up against an opponent. The blinds just went up to X. At X, do you never call PF, do you only go AI or fold? What is X? Can there always be some play? Are there some hands you might just call with or just min-raise with? Does your opponent matter?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read a couple (possibly contradictory?) things. Not sure if any of this is right, and I'm certainly not an SNG pro, so read this as a skeptic and rip it up as you see fit. If this is worthless crap, please say so and why.

The first thing I've heard is that you should become more agressive as the difference between the two chipstacks grows, and more passive as they move closer to equal.

The other thing I've heard is that the best player in the world can only expect to win about 55% of the time starting with equal stacks against a monkey who pushes every hand.

UMTerp
05-06-2005, 04:56 PM
I still follow the 10xBB rule heads up. If either one of us is below 10 big blinds, it's push or fold.

poincaraux
05-06-2005, 04:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Also take a look at poincaraux's An opponent-centric solution to the heads-up jam or fold problem (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=220 3844&PHPSESSID=&fpart=).

The Shadow (who doesn't know the answer but figures that it's something like once the blinds get big enough or you think the villian is a better post-flop player than you)

[/ QUOTE ]

If I get some free time this weekend, I'm going take a couple of obvious next steps with this. The most obvious one: do a weighted average over all possible opponent hands and see if jam-or-fold on the button is profitable or not vs. various opponent strategies. There are some obvious steps after that as well. We'll see if they work out /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

FieryJustice
05-06-2005, 05:08 PM
Usually in the $215's, it is HU around the 6th level. I push every hand I play.

Jcardshark

Scuba Chuck
05-06-2005, 05:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The blinds just went up to X. At X, do you never call PF, do you only go AI or fold? What is X?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



When discussing HU games, as the blinds increase to greater than 5% of the total tournament chips, the AI or fold can be an effective strategy.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Maybe I'm applying the 10bb rule incorrectly, but I'm playing roughly after that headsup as well. So with equal stacks I'm only pushing from level 8 and on.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if tournament chips represents t8000, level 8 blinds are 250/500, then 500/8000 = 6.25% of the total tournament chips. If you apply t10,000, then it's 5%. I'm sure we're saying the same thing. My point is, for me, this is when I begin to consider push or fold mode (unless stacksizes are grossly uneven earlier of course).

shejk
05-06-2005, 06:01 PM
Yeah we sure are. Took 10k chips for granted, that might be where I lost you.

sabre170
05-06-2005, 06:51 PM
If my stack is 8BBs or bigger, I may raise less than all in.
I also trap a lot. Many opponents only have one move--all in. So I let them "force me off" of weak hands. Then I call one with any A, K, or pair, and very often take it down.

Sabre170

Spladle Master
05-06-2005, 06:53 PM
When either player has 10xBB or less.

GtrHtr
05-06-2005, 08:08 PM
My thoughts:

[ QUOTE ]
If your opponent will let you see a flop without reraising (unless you're trapping), then I will complete.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Assuming you have a reasonable stack, I like to see a lot of flops. HU, based on reads to this point, any piece of the flop is important.

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, the best strategy is dependent on the situation which includes, relative stack sizes, blinds, and opponent.


[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. Short stacked, I tend to go AI more often - again, based on reads status of the blinds etc. When chip leader, hand selection to an AI bet of 25% of your stack shouldn't be taken lightly.

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, there is no one answer to this. But the most important factor is your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the bottom line. Plus experience. I have often played 60-100 hands HU in an SnG. I am a single table player for the most part and I learn a lot in the longer HU bouts.

Nice post Scuba.

CardSharpCook
05-06-2005, 08:15 PM
Thanks for the responses, guys. Linking this thread for the boys over at MTT.

Thanks,
CSC

AA suited
05-06-2005, 08:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Usually in the $215's, it is HU around the 6th level. I push every hand I play.

Jcardshark

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your win % by pushing everyhand?

and is that only as sb, or also when opponent completes/min raises?

Nottom
05-06-2005, 10:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Usually in the $215's, it is HU around the 6th level. I push every hand I play.

Jcardshark

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your win % by pushing everyhand?

and is that only as sb, or also when opponent completes/min raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he means every hand he decided to play, not every hand he's dealt.

the shadow
05-06-2005, 11:01 PM
Take a look at the threads in sections 2.10 (Heads Up) and 4.2 (Hand Rankings) of my Favorite Threads (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=191 8735&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=) list, especially the Sklansky-Karlson hand ranking threads. The percentages of top hands with which to push or call vary with the stack to big blind ratio.

The Shadow

Degen
05-07-2005, 09:55 AM
hey stop spamming that dude, i think we should keep it between ourselves /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Andre