TPTK, is it possible to get away?

[durron597]

I almost folded both when he raised and when he pushed. I think I was tilting a little bit from stuff earlier in the day but I can't convince myself this was an easy fold.

No-limit Texas Hold'em $5+$.50 (real money), hand #880,604,905
Murrieta Single Table Tournament, 6 May 2005 02:16 PM

Seat 1: BB ($2,135 in chips)
Seat 2: UTG ($2,490 in chips)
Seat 3: UTG+1 ($2,865 in chips)
Seat 5: MP (Hero) [A/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/club.gif] ($1,255 in chips)
Seat 6: CO-1 ($1,860 in chips)
Seat 7: CO ($2,005 in chips)
Seat 8: Button ($800 in chips)
Seat 9: SB ($1,590 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($15), BB posts blind ($30).

PRE-FLOP
UTG calls $30, UTG+1 calls $30, MP (Hero) bets $150, CO-1 folds, CO bets $350, Button calls $350, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $320, UTG+1 folds, MP (Hero) calls $200.

FLOP [board cards 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif,8/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
UTG checks, MP (Hero) checks, CO bets $1,655 and is all-in, Button calls $450 and is all-in, UTG folds, MP (Hero) calls $905 and is all-in.

[Pokerscott]

Yes it is possible to get away...

limp with AQ and fold to aggression. Raising makes post-flop play with AQ very challenging. This is a great example of the problem.

I described my opinion/thinking on this issue

here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2321841 &Forum=All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Mai n=2319992&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=25294&dat erange=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post2321841)

Pokerscott

[mcpherzen]

You probably should have folded this pre-flop when you got 3-bet by a player and there was a cold call behind that. Awful difficult for your A-Qo to be leading at that point.

CO is playing the hand like he has AA or KK (pre-flop reraise + flop push with the two hearts on board), but it also wouldn't surprise me to see that he has JJ or TT, and probably absolute garbage (like 66) 10% of the time. He definitely doesn't have an 8 or QQ. Hard to tell what the button's up to with 2 overcalls. It's a tough one, but I think your best play is to fold. And like I said, do it pre-flop next time when faced with this kind of action and you'll save yourself chips and haveing to make difficult decisions.

--Z

[durron597]

There are two aspects about this hand that I want to point out that made my near-fold into a call.

First: This is a $5 + $.50. I've seen some crazy things at this level like CO having 66 here.

Second: Look how short my stack is. I don't know if I can fold preflop with 3 cold callers so I'm getting approximately 7:1 on the preflop call against 3 people as the table shortstack.

On the flop, I basically decided that a push is only getting called by AA/KK/QQ/any 8, so I checked in order to get hands that I beat (JJ/TT/KQ) to bet.

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
There are two aspects about this hand that I want to point out that made my near-fold into a call.

First: This is a $5 + $.50. I've seen some crazy things at this level like CO having 66 here.

Second: Look how short my stack is. I don't know if I can fold preflop with 3 cold callers so I'm getting approximately 7:1 on the preflop call against 3 people as the table shortstack.

On the flop, I basically decided that a push is only getting called by AA/KK/QQ/any 8, so I checked in order to get hands that I beat (JJ/TT/KQ) to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you in #1, crazy things will happen in $5 SNG's. That said, there is only so much you can do to analyze how crazy the players are. You raised 2 limpers with a decent-sized bet, and got re-popped to $350 (and then cold-called by the button). In the absence of all other information, and assuming the opponents are playing anywhere near rationally, that means your AQ is behind, and it may be WAY behind (i.e. AK or AA).

#2: This is an often-made mistake that you DON'T want to make. Just because you have one of the smallest stacks at the table, you aren't necessarily a "short stack." That can only be calculated by looking at your stack relative to the blinds, also taking into account how quickly the blinds change and what they will go to next. You started this hand with $1255 chips, and after your pre-flop bet, you're down to $1100. That's still 36 big blinds at the current level ($15/$30 blinds) and will be 22 big blinds at $25/$50, making you, actually, a BIG STACK, and not even close to being a short stack.

So, once raised on the flop, you should be noticing that (a) your AQ is most likely behind the cutoff, and possibly behind the button as well, and
(b) you don't need to win this pot because you're a BIG STACK in no danger of going broke immediately.

This is a pre-flop fold, clear as day. Take a big step forward in your poker career by making it every single time, regardless of the level you're playing in.

--Zen

[Tilt]

I'd limp this preflop. I might call a raise if I had a read on the opponent making it. If I call a raise and I spike a Q there is probably no getting away from it when your stack is this shallow. Once in a great while I will give an opponent credit for the overpair here, but never at the 5's.

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
First: This is a $5 + $.50. I've seen some crazy things at this level like CO having 66 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crazy people get good cards too.

[ QUOTE ]
Second: Look how short my stack is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your stack is fine. You're 50% bigger than the real short stack, even he isn't hurting at this point. I don't see any need to get so deep into this hand. In fact, I don't think I'd even limp with less than AK.

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
There are two aspects about this hand that I want to point out that made my near-fold into a call.

First: This is a $5 + $.50. I've seen some crazy things at this level like CO having 66 here.

Second: Look how short my stack is. I don't know if I can fold preflop with 3 cold callers so I'm getting approximately 7:1 on the preflop call against 3 people as the table shortstack.

On the flop, I basically decided that a push is only getting called by AA/KK/QQ/any 8, so I checked in order to get hands that I beat (JJ/TT/KQ) to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Did you drop back down to the $5 +.50? I thought you were at the 10s, and 20s?

2. Your stack is still at 30xBB. The next level I believe is a BB of 50, so your still at 18xBB for that - so you have about 15 hands (give or take) before you fall below the 10xBB Level.

If you can't fold here and play short stacked, then you need to be able to work on that part of your game

3. Next time find the Purple horsehoes, so you can KNOW you have the nuts.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

1. Did you drop back down to the $5 +.50? I thought you were at the 10s, and 20s?


[/ QUOTE ]

I know I'm a winning player at $10 + $1, I don't have enough games at $20+$2 to say either way. However, several months ago forced me to cash out most of my BR and quit. I'm currently underbankrolled for $10+$1 and I don't want to put any more money into online poker.

[ QUOTE ]

2. Your stack is still at 30xBB. The next level I believe is a BB of 50, so your still at 18xBB for that - so you have about 15 hands (give or take) before you fall below the 10xBB Level.

If you can't fold here and play short stacked, then you need to be able to work on that part of your game


[/ QUOTE ]

I think I was on tilt from some things that happened at other tables earlier in the session. I saw 7:1 pot odds and TPTK and lost my head for just long enough to lose my stack.

[ QUOTE ]

3. Next time find the Purple horsehoes, so you can KNOW you have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I don't know what was up with that hand. Never seen anything like it before or since /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Voltron87]

limp preflop.
fold to aggression oop.
this avoids hard to play flops like this one.
even if you hit an a or q you still could be killed.
some people fold it early, i think that is extreme.
i play aq, but not in raised pots.

[Cleveland Guy]

I'm gonna send you a PM - read it!

[specialk28]

I think this is a fairly obvious KK vs. AA situation. Even with 7 to 1 pot odds against those hands your percentage to win would be much lower. Even though it is a $5 table they can still catch big hands like that and they follow the fairly standard pattern that you are seeing on that hand. Besides is 15/30 the second level? That said, you have plenty of chips to wait for a better opportunity. Although i do like the raise to 150 because players at that level like to limp with KT's, K9, Ax's, in early position.

[pokerlaw]

i would limp this PF. if i was going to RR, i guess 150 is ok, i would prob do 125 though.

Once you get RRed and then all those people call, get out. you are too behind. A flop like this is a perfect example of how you can get broke by KK or AA. It is too early and you are NOT a short-stack (look at the blinds).

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a fairly obvious KK vs. AA situation. Even with 7 to 1 pot odds against those hands your percentage to win would be much lower. Even though it is a $5 table they can still catch big hands like that and they follow the fairly standard pattern that you are seeing on that hand. Besides is 15/30 the second level? That said, you have plenty of chips to wait for a better opportunity. Although i do like the raise to 150 because players at that level like to limp with KT's, K9, Ax's, in early position.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I'm thinking now. I still like my first raise, but I don't like my call nor my flop call. Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

[Voltron87]

this should be very easy to get away from on the flop with the two all ins.

[hummusx]

I limp AQ a lot too, but to everyone else that said they do the same I'd like to know how you handle the flop with numerous players when there was no PF raise. I don't think you can be too excited for the flop to come Qxx if there are 5 other people in and there was no raise PF. Maybe if it was Q72 rainbow, but chances are pretty good that you are going to be looking at straight and/or flush possibilities, and with that many people how far are you going to go with TPTK? We're back to difficult decisions, and spots where we lose a lot of money where we don't need to.

Are we playing AQ for those times when we only get a couple limpers behind us and for those times we flop a monster? This may be partially influenced by AQs vs AQo I suppose. We've got a lot more value with the former if we're limping.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Are we playing AQ for those times when we only get a couple limpers behind us and for those times we flop a monster? This may be partially influenced by AQs vs AQo I suppose. We've got a lot more value with the former if we're limping.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is *exactly* why I still like my initial raise. But I should have folded PF to the reraise.

Results for those who care:

No-limit Texas Hold'em $5+$.50 (real money), hand #880,604,905
Murrieta Single Table Tournament, 6 May 2005 02:16 PM

Seat 1: BB ($2,135 in chips)
Seat 2: UTG ($2,490 in chips)
Seat 3: UTG+1 ($2,865 in chips)
Seat 5: MP (Hero) [A/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/club.gif] ($1,255 in chips)
Seat 6: CO-1 ($1,860 in chips)
Seat 7: CO ($2,005 in chips)
Seat 8: Button ($800 in chips)
Seat 9: SB ($1,590 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($15), BB posts blind ($30).

PRE-FLOP
UTG calls $30, UTG+1 calls $30, MP (Hero) bets $150, CO-1 folds, CO bets $350, Button calls $350, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $320, UTG+1 folds, MP (Hero) calls $200.

FLOP
UTG checks, MP (Hero) checks, CO bets $1,655 and is all-in, Button calls $450 and is all-in, UTG folds, MP (Hero) calls $905 and is all-in.

[b]TURN


[b]RIVER [board cards 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif,8/images/graemlins/spade.gif,2/images/graemlins/spade.gif,3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]


SHOWDOWN
CO shows [ A/images/graemlins/spade.gif,A/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
Button shows [ 10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
MP (Hero) shows [ A/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
CO wins $750, CO wins $910, CO wins $2,825.



SUMMARY
Dealer: Button
Pot: $4,485
BB, loses $30
UTG, loses $350
UTG+1, loses $30
MP (Hero), loses $1,255
CO-1, loses $0
CO, bets $2,005, collects $4,485, net $2,480
Button, loses $800
SB, loses $15