Dumping top 2 on the turn

[I Play 2 Ski]

I don't like this hand, because I played it passively, but what else could I do?

SB is 21/9/2

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero folds, SB calls.

[PinkyRingo]

I'll be the first to say, "I don't get it."

You need to call.

[rigoletto]

3-bet the turn!

[PinkyRingo]

And of course by "call" I meant "3-bet". Like you said. Ahem.

[I Play 2 Ski]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the turn!

[/ QUOTE ]

I was either going to 3 bet or fold. After thinking for a few moments, I decided something was very wrong and folded. Is this an auto 3 bet for you all the time?

[stankphish]

it looks to me like to me like SB has AQ or made a set on the turn with QQ. utg could have bet there with a lower 2 pair or less likely made a straight. utg+1 appears to be on a heart draw. i think you were ahead here and i would have raised the flop and 3 bet the turn.

Comments? im new and have decided to stop lurking these forums for hours and put in my 2 cents to see where im at

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
it looks to me like to me like SB has AQ or made a set on the turn with QQ. utg could have bet there with a lower 2 pair or less likely made a straight. utg+1 appears to be on a heart draw. i think you were ahead here and i would have raised the flop and 3 bet the turn.

Comments? im new and have decided to stop lurking these forums for hours and put in my 2 cents to see where im at

[/ QUOTE ]

if he raised the flop i very highly doubt he would have been in the same position to three-bet the turn. besides I think that raising the flop would be wrong anyway, everyone is of course going to call unless it is three bet, and if they do call, you are giving alot of draws the right odds to call the turn and beat you on the river.

To OP:
i know what you mean about not wanting to threebet the turn here, it looks like UTG hit a set of 7's or 9's on the flop. its probably very close to even money EV given no read on UTG. If the read is LAG then three bet of course.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this hand, because I played it passively, but what else could I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could 3bet the turn, for starters.

I'd raise this turn w/ as little as AQ for value and would semi-bluff raise w/ QT, JT, and others.

This is a terrible fold. You should have 3 bet, and if it gets capped fold the river unimproved.

lf

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this an auto 3 bet for you all the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't wanna speak for rigolleto, but abso-freaking-lutely is this an auto 3bet.

lf

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible fold. You should have 3 bet, and if it gets capped fold the river unimproved.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

is it still a terrible fold if UTG is 16/6/1.5?

[mrkilla]

any stats on UTG?
3 bet the turn

[lil feller]

Yes. Those are pretty close to my stats, and there are a lot of hands i'm raising this turn with that are worse than QJ.

He may very well be up against a set, or a straight, but even if he is all his outs are probably clean (if somebody has QQ or JJ here good for them). I think most of the time given the lack of flop aggression he's in front here, and if he's not he's drawing live, and will get paid plenty if he hit, especially if 99 is out there.

lf

[I Play 2 Ski]

Stats
UTG - 41 hands - 43/14/1
UTG +1 - 43 Hands - 12/8/1.5

[FoodForThought]

What ever happened to good laydowns? I think three betting is an option, but I like the laydown. There is a good chance you are behind (QQ, JJ, 99, 77, KT, T8)....but even if you are ahead, there are MANY cards that will kill your hand on the river. I'm not saying three betting is wrong...but it is not a clear three bet (I haven't worked out the math).

[lil feller]

This is a likely possibility.

SB is making a hopeless turn semi-bluff bet with a flush draw that doesn't include a T.

UTG is raising him with AA

UTG +1 calling with JT.

This is about as bad as it can get for our hero, if he is infront at the time.

the guy with the heart draw has 8 outs against our hand
the guy with the Aces has 7 or 8 unshared outs (depending on if he has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif in his hand or not.
the guy with a Ten has 6 unshared outs.

I think this is right, I might have missed something. That leaves the field with 21 or 22 outs, depending on the guy with the overpair (note if he has kings our situation improves a little). The field will improve a little better then 50% of the time (22 outs/40 unseens right? its very possible I hosed this, i'm more of a "feel" player then a math player).

Hero's getting 4:1 on his turn call, and can likely fold the river if one of the obvious draws gets there. I'd like my chances here well enough to continue, even if I knew the field would get there over half the time.

If he's behind getting 4:1 certainly isn't enough to draw to a four card full house, but if hero improves it isn't unreasonably to see 6 big bets that aren't ours go in on the river here, which makes it pretty close. That combined with the great chance that he's acutally leading make continuing a must, and if he's going to continue, 3betting is the best way to go. If he's really worried about a set, he can always check down the river if he misses.

lf

[FoodForThought]

Yeah...I hear you. I didn't work it all out. I'm just not sure it's a clear three bet. Have to look at odds that you are behind with your outs...and the odds hand holds up if not behind. Regarding feel vs. math....something about that hand makes me feel like someone was slowplaying a monster...and the cold caller worries me.

[I Play 2 Ski]

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding feel vs. math....something about that hand makes me feel like someone was slowplaying a monster...and the cold caller worries me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats exactly what i was thinking. I'll post the results shortly

[I Play 2 Ski]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this hand, because I played it passively, but what else could I do?

SB is 21/9/2

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero folds, SB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

The river was another 9

SB - AA
UTG - J9
UTG+1 - 88

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the turn!

[/ QUOTE ]

I was either going to 3 bet or fold. After thinking for a few moments, I decided something was very wrong and folded. Is this an auto 3 bet for you all the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you said 'but what else could I do?' and I answered. I'm trying to rid my play of auto actions, but I would 3-bet here a wast majority of the time.

[FoodForThought]

So much for my 'feel'........lol

[JackOfSpeed]

Bad fold. You would have rivered "three pair," a nearly unbeatable hand.

[lil feller]

and a clear example of why 3 betting is usually the way to go. Sure AA got there, but you would have punished him for trying, and in the end thats all we can do.

lf

[I Play 2 Ski]

J9 got there, but your right. a vast majority if the time I do just that, but like I said, this time if felt UTG+1 was up to something. I waas wrong, but still wtf was he thinking.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
What ever happened to good laydowns?

[/ QUOTE ]

Chris Moneymaker won.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[spoohunter]

[ QUOTE ]
Bad fold. You would have rivered "three pair," a nearly unbeatable hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not funny damnit.

*cries*

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
What ever happened to good laydowns? I think three betting is an option, but I like the laydown. There is a good chance you are behind (QQ, JJ, 99, 77, KT, T8)....but even if you are ahead, there are MANY cards that will kill your hand on the river. I'm not saying three betting is wrong...but it is not a clear three bet (I haven't worked out the math).

[/ QUOTE ]
if he had one of those hands, a raise doesn't seem like the obvious line, i like the 3 bet

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
You would have rivered "three pair," a nearly unbeatable hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a Canadian full house!

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
it looks to me like to me like SB has AQ or made a set on the turn with QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because he bet? Don't you think he would bet out again with JJ, KK or AA? Of course, he might have check-raised on some street, but I don't see how you can narrow him down to specifically AQ or QQ.

[steveyz]

Raise the flop. 3-bet the turn. UTG could easily have Q9/QT or J9/J7/97. Given you showed no strength on the flop, you have to 3-bet this turn or at least call. This is a really bad fold IMO.

[I Play 2 Ski]

This was a great thinking post. Thanks for all the comments and advice. You all have helped my improve my game tremendously!