Misplayed Flop/Turn?

[Twitch1977]

This is a hand I played last night:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Limping in with AJo probably isn't the best idea but I was having a pretty crappy session and I wasn't playing my best.

Flop: (5.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

I was happy to see this flop, my opponent has been raising a lot of hands preflop and he usually leads out betting after the flop. My plan was to just check/call the flop then check/raise the turn to get some more cash in the pot.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

I didn't expect to get reraised after my check raise, decide to go into call down mode now.

River: (9.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

Now my question is, in a hand like this heads up is making plays to maxamize the amount of money going into the pot the proper play to make, or am I better off check raising the flop to get a better sense of where I am in the hand? Any other comments are of course welcome except with the preflop limp that I recognize is a mistake.

Thanks
T

[jrz1972]

Given that you failed to raise preflop, this is a good time for WA/WB.

You would adopt the same line if you (properly) raised preflop and then got three-bet.

So in other words the flop is fine, but you should check-call the turn and bet the river.

[bosoxfan]

What's WA/WB?

[Isura]

I would check-raise the flop and go into call down mode from there if faced with more aggression.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
What's WA/WB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Way Ahead / Way Behind.

On this hand, you are way ahead of something like KQ, JJ or AT, but way behind AQ or AK.

In these kinds of situations, the problem with getting real aggressive is that you will fold out the hands that you are beating (like JJ) while you will be just spewing against the hands that are beating you (like AK).

Thus, you check-call the flop, check-call the turn, and bet the river, ensuring that one bet goes into the pot on each street. This is a standard line when you flop top pair against a preflop aggressor HU OOP.

[aK13]

Question: Suppose on the flop, we check, button bets, we raise, he 3bets...do we take a WA/WB line here? (Check/call the turn, bet the river?) I ran into a few situations similar to this yesterday, and I'm not sure if we should bet the river or not.

[Twitch1977]

Thank you all for your comments, that's what I get for not raising preflop.

This guy had been raising a lot of hands preflop so I didn't give him credit for a better ace then mine, but I definetely should have made sure with a check raise on the flop.

In the end I lost to AQ.

T

[davelin]

Raise pre-flop. Yup, WA/WB line.

[waynethetrain]

[ QUOTE ]
Thus, you check-call the flop, check-call the turn, and bet the river, ensuring that one bet goes into the pot on each street. This is a standard line when you flop top pair against a preflop aggressor HU OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I understand the river bet as being correct in all situations.

Let's just say it's 50-50 you are WA or WB.

Assuming a reasonable opponent:

If you are way ahead, he will either fold or call (depending on what he has) - making you an extra bet "some percentage" of the time that he would have checked behind.

If you are way behind, he will usually either call or raise - costing you an extra bet "some percentage" of the time if you decide to call the raise. If you decide to fold to the raise, you could be folding best hand to a bluff some small percentage of the time.

I don't see your river bet getting him to fold AK/AQ or other better hands etc...by betting.

If on the other hand, you think it's better than 50-50 you are ahead and/or you know your opponent is a calling station that will call with anything then by all means it makes more sense.

I'm probably missing something here, but I don't see it.

I think it's dependent on the opponent and your estimation of what the chances are you are ahead.

[Grail]

Everyone says to raise PF, but doesn't SSH pretty clearly say that AJo UTG you should limp?

Every chart I've seen based on SSH recomends limping with AJo UTG. Raise with it either LP, or MP depending ont he chart.

AJs is a totally different animal and should be raise from anywhere.

[MrWookie47]

AJo is a standard preflop raise from anywhere, and it's not a hand that does well if you limp. Additionally, if you're new, using a preflop chart isn't all that bad, but you should be thinking about taking the training wheels off. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=495010&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1)

[xenthebrain]

Why not check-raising the flop?
If you didn't to induce a turnbet, it's a mistake IMO.
I see this going check through on the turn so often HU, just c/r the flop and bet the turn yourself.

Calldown mode after his aggression is fine.

(P.S. Raise preflop and quit your session when you know you are having a bad day)

[Disconnected]

I'm not sure why you were totally surprised to get re-raised on the turn, since button raised pre-flop. You may be dominated here. I would lead the flop, and if raised, go into a WA/WB line.

[xenthebrain]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone says to raise PF, but doesn't SSH pretty clearly say that AJo UTG you should limp?

Every chart I've seen based on SSH recomends limping with AJo UTG. Raise with it either LP, or MP depending ont he chart.

AJs is a totally different animal and should be raise from anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the loose game recommendations in SSH AJo is a raise from early position

[Disconnected]

SSH is at home, but I believe Grail is semi-correct about AJo not being a raise UTG. I think that's one of the adjustments you can make based on how tight the table is, I don't think SSH says you *never* limp AJo UTG.

That said, most people on this board will raise AJo if they're first in. For me personally, I sometimes do it, sometimes don't, but mostly will.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not check-raising the flop?
If you didn't to induce a turnbet, it's a mistake IMO.
I see this going check through on the turn so often HU, just c/r the flop and bet the turn yourself.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree. Lets say I posted a QQ hand where I had position HU. Flop is A97. How many people would tell me to bet the flop if checked to, check the turn thru to possibly induce a bluff, and call the river? Personally I would bet the turn, fold to a C/R, check behind on the river in this case, but the point is a lot of people in villian's spot are going to check this turn thru when you're ahead.

Checking this turn is no good.
WA/WB? Meh - I think we're ahead here given our read that "villian raises a lot" plus there was only 1 limper in front of him when he made his PF raise. Me not scared of AK.

[Twitch1977]

I agree making my move on the flop would have been a lot better given the chance of it getting checked through on the turn.

I also thought my hand was good here, I believe he had a pfr of about 18% and there aren't many hands I was behind to so until I got reraised on the turn I thought my hand was good.

T

[Twitch1977]

I was surprised because I'm only behind to a AK, AQ, or a set and given the amount he was raising preflop there is no way I could label myself as being dominated right out of the gate.

I don't like the idea of leading out the flop, because if I get raised I have to decide if I should reraise or just call it down.

I like the check raise the flop idea that several people have suggested.

T

[Wetdog]

I don't see a problem limping UTG with an offsuit A and the call. I bet out on the flop Top pair with a decent overcard kicker looks good. I even 3bet the flop if raised. The rest is fine.

edit: I guess I need to go over SSHE again.

[imported_Reaction]

[ QUOTE ]
"Let's just say it's 50-50 you are WA or WB."

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand this to change the original assumption. It is more like.. 90% of the time we are ahead(10% opponent is behind) and 90% of the time we are behind(10% opponent is ahead). You should think of it in terms of a way of playing two different situations on exactly opposite sides of the scale with +EV resulting from the totals of both situations.

Edit: (BTW, that river bet is the beauty of the play IMO. Because the results of WA/WB will cancel each other out and we gain when the opponent folds the river.)

Here is a link to an archive post that has a disscussion of the Clark theorm and c-c-b line. It also has a link to another disscussion of c-c-b line. Linky (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1240476&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1)

(I have not found the orginal Clark Theorm Post yet.. But I'm still digging.)

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
(I have not found the orginal Clark Theorm Post yet.. But I'm still digging.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how old the Clarkmeister theorem actually is, but here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1763016&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=) is a fairly recent thread that could be it. It does not specifically outline his theory, and the hand is not actually an application of it. However, if you read all of the conversation between him and thirddan, you can definetly derive the Clarkmeister theory from this thread. It's possible that a few other threads gave a link to this post while discussing a four flush, and that's how the Clarkmeister theorem came to be. Also, it could be much older, and I'm way off base.

[imported_Reaction]

The link I posted was from Nov'04 and Clark chimed in to clairfy key points of the play. The one you linke to was Feb '05. So I think it was earlier then both. Proabably after '02 because that is Clark's Reg year.

But! The post you linked to has a great discussion of protecting your middle overpairs w/ redraws. Then flows into a discussion of differing ways to play them PF. Goot link - Fav'd it - Thanx

[Shillx]

Not a good time to check/raise on the turn. When he 3-bets it though...you have to lay it down.

Check/call, check/call, bet this hand for best results.

Brad