How to adapt from cashgames to SNGs

[FlyingStart]

Hi, I've been playing alot of limit small stakes cashgames lately, but it gets boring sometimes and I decided to try SNGs (still playing limit in the SNGs). Althoug this was more fun I went from winning to losing.

I'm guessing you will have to play more agressivly in a SNG tournament because of the continuously increasing blinds. But what type of additional hands should you start playing, and when should you play more aggressive? I'm well familiar with the power of a big stack from watching the world poker tour :O, but I find it much harder to bully short stacks in limit hold'em compared to no-limit

[Nottom]

I don't think anyone here actually realizes there are limit SNGs.

Edit: Well thats not completely true, we realize they are there when we go to raise and realize there isn't a little slider bar.

[FlyingStart]

Hehe, I wasn't sure myself either until I checked it and found it to my surprise

[networkman]

I've actually got the opposite problem, been playing SnG's pretty exclusivly for months and months now, I've lost the 'feel' to ring games.

Read, read, read and read some more mate. For the low levels, pretty much all the answers are allready in the archives.

[multifast1]

That was my same situation about 6 months ago.. except I went to NL sng's instead of limit. It took some reading and analysing to get good enough to consistantly beat the games. Problem is that you get so programmed to playing ABC poker at the limit ring games and that's just NOT how you play NL sng's... but that's what makes them more fun too! Search the archive for some good guides that will at least keep your head above water while learning the different aspects. And the guide should satisfy you desire for a cookbook while you're building a feel for the game.

Good luck!

[multifast1]

[ QUOTE ]
I've actually got the opposite problem, been playing SnG's pretty exclusivly for months and months now, I've lost the 'feel' to ring games.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the opposite experience recently. I went back to play some limit ring games (to clear sign-up bonus and also at B&Ms while traveling) and found my game was improved. I think it was because of playing the NL tourneys. I found myself far more aware of people's stacks and really thinking about "why" someone made a raise on the turn or why the just limped pre-flop then check raised on the flop... Basically I got much better at putting people on hands. Like I said above, I got so programmed playing limit ring games that I kinda stopped evaluating everything and was on auto-pilot I think. I'm sure the same could happen if you play enough NL sng's over time too though..... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Iamafish]

All I can say is practice a lot of both.

I started playing limit, then when to SnG's, then went back to limit, then NL, and now Im trying to get back into SnG's.

NL Play money should get you a bit of a feel, but thats not enough. Play 25NL and SnG's. Books are good too.

[Tilt]

Feasting on limit newbies in NL SNG's is high EV.

Like, when they min-raise KQ in MP and then you set them all in with TT and you can just hear them thinking as the timer winds down "wait, we haven't seen the flop yet, can he really do that?"

Or when they min re-raise their flush draws from LP and you just push...and then their time dwindles down...

I hate limit poker, but I love getting limit players into NL games. Oh my, they are so different. Your background may as well be from playing bridge as limit when you want to learn NL. Though I think high stakes limit players will have most of the right skill sets already, but low stakes limit players may as well be starting over at poker when they move to NL SNG's IMO.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Feasting on limit newbies in NL SNG's is high EV.

Like, when they min-raise KQ in MP and then you set them all in with TT and you can just hear them thinking as the timer winds down "wait, we haven't seen the flop yet, can he really do that?"

Or when they min re-raise their flush draws from LP and you just push...and then their time dwindles down...

I hate limit poker, but I love getting limit players into NL games. Oh my, they are so different. Your background may as well be from playing bridge as limit when you want to learn NL. Though I think high stakes limit players will have most of the right skill sets already, but low stakes limit players may as well be starting over at poker when they move to NL SNG's IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's very, very different. Stack sizes and their influence on the game being the main thing, I think -- they're critical in SNG's and almost always meaningless in limit ring games, as people usually have enough to cover their bets and can always just buy in for more. But in a SNG, your stack size can actually be much more important than the cards you're holding, and even force you to play crap or fold what is probably the winning hand.

[Blarg]

It will take a fair amount of reading this forum, although we mostly talk abot no-limit here, to adapt to the changes from limit ring to SNG's, be they limit or no limit. Do a search for the link post by "the shadow."

While gorging on all the reading you can do here, be sure to post some hand histories. Don't post whole tourneys; nobody wants to read that. But look for hands that raise questions in your mind, so that you can use them to pose those questions to others, and see what they say. You may get some questionable answers, but even those will make you think, and you may get lucky enough to mine some real gold out of some of the answers. We've got some solid people here, some of who can back up their ideas with really good explanations.

[FlyingStart]

Ok, thx for replies. I think I will give no-limit SnG's a shot

[FlyingStart]

I've gotten pretty used to playing draws at limit tables. You bet them for value if you get the right odds on your bet. If I get a draw for an open-ended straight when playing no-limit I will still bet on the flop even with only one opponent because of the implied odds. But what do you then do on the turn if you don't catch your draw and you're out of position?

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
I've gotten pretty used to playing draws at limit tables. You bet them for value if you get the right odds on your bet. If I get a draw for an open-ended straight when playing no-limit I will still bet on the flop even with only one opponent because of the implied odds. But what do you then do on the turn if you don't catch your draw and you're out of position?

[/ QUOTE ]
Draws suck in NL poker. Well, only if you approach them like you do in limit. Betting them is fine, but you have to be willing to fold it when your opponent comes over the top of you. I bet I could count on one hand the number of times it was correct for me to fold a OESD or flush draw in a limit game, because you're always getting huge odds in low-limit hold'em.

Bet your draw and hope he folds. It's just a semi-bluff. You're betting to give him the opportunity to fold, but if something goes wrong and he calls, you still got a chance to outdraw him. Just don't get married to your hand - give it up if you're not getting the odds.

As for being out of position...just don't bet your draws out of position. If you've got a straight or flush draw, you can bet it when you're in late and it passes around to you. If an EP player bets into three players, forget about raising to try to get a free turn card. That's asking for him to come over the top. He's shown strength by betting into multiple players, why give him the chance to knock you out? Call if you've got the odds (and I wouldn't add a whole lot of value with implied odds in NL tourneys), let it go if you don't.

To directly answer your question, you shouldn't even put yourself in a position where you've bet a draw out of position and miss on the turn.

[FlyingStart]

Thanks, that helped alot /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But I don't understand why a draw hasn't got great implied odds. If you catch your draw, isn't this something that the other player will not expect and therefore aggree on a pretty large bet?

[pergesu]

Limit ring games and NL tourneys are completely different beasts. The reason implied odds are so wonderful in limit games is that opponents have no problem bleeding off one bet at a time. If you play live, you'll here, "I think you got the flush, but I'll pay you off" at least ten times in one session. Because it's no big deal to put one or two more chips in.

But if a third flush card comes, good luck getting them to call for 1/3 of their stack. If you hit a straight, they won't see it, but they'll think, "Man did he get lucky and spike two pair? Did he outflop me?" Players are less apt to make weak calls in big bet poker, and that's even more true in tourney poker, where the actual odds of winning chips isn't nearly as important as your odds of finishing ITM.

[KJ o]

Actually, I think the easiest way to beat the low level SnG's is to play *even more* ABC. Just realize that it's a different set of ABC's from limit ring games!

[BradleyT]

When the blinds get to 50/100 it's usually too expensive to chase draws because 1/2 to full size pot bets are usually a big percentage of your stack. This is true at 25/50 too if you haven't won a pot yet.

In the first two levels when you can see cards cheap and theres multiway pots it's usually fine to chase.

[FlyingStart]

But what if you make it a smaller bet, but still more than a one BB on the river in limit?

I don't know what ITM means :O

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
But what if you make it a smaller bet, but still more than a one BB on the river in limit?

I don't know what ITM means :O

[/ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't be betting 1 BB into a 10 BB pot.

ITM = in the money