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View Full Version : A Word about Honest Poker!


Vincent Lepore
05-06-2005, 04:53 AM
In another thread a poster asked Mason Malmuth:

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do you think the topic of "Making Poker Honest" deserves any attention

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I in no way am attempting to answer for Mason. This subject is so dear to me that I had to reply. First let me say that "Poker" is neither honest nor dishonest. Poker is a game.

When I was a little boy I would travel to the North End of Boston to My Grandma's house every Sunday. Once there, I would eat dinner and then watch my father and his brothers and sisters play poker. I loved my father and my uncle's and aunt's and I loved to watch them play poker. One of the things I remember most about their poker playing was that they never questioned the outcome of a hand. Sure they would call each lucky and other names for making what they considered bad plays but they never questioned anyone's integrity. It was never said but somehow it was understood that it was a mortal sin to be dishonest at the poker table.

When I became a teenager I began to play poker with some of my friends. It's hard to describe but it seemed as if, while at the poker table, we were all part of the same family. It was like we had all learned from the same father and uncles that when you played poker you never cheated. If someone got caught even glancing at another players hand there would be hell to play. Cheating wasn't just frowned upon. It was not tolerated!

You could call someone any name in the book but don't call them a cheat! To be called a cheater would have been the gravest of insults. Among my friends nothing was worse than being called a card cheat.

The amazing thing about this was that noone ever taught us this. Not directly, anyway. We just seemed to know that there was nothing worse than a cheat. It wasn't just poker though. It was anything that you were involved in. Any game, baseball, football, stick ball, you name it. Cheating was wrong. We never had to worry about cheating when we played together because we all knew it was wrong. We kept the game honest because we were honest. We were honest because we had to live with ourselves.

"Making Poker Honest" is not going to happen. Poker is a game. "Making People Honest" might be what the real issue is. How do you do that? I'm not sure. Maybe you make them go to grandma's house on Sundays, eat dinner and watch their father and uncle's play.

Vince

Equal
05-06-2005, 06:02 AM
Great post.

cianosheehan
05-06-2005, 07:52 AM
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Great post.

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Vincent Lepore
05-06-2005, 01:32 PM
Thank you both!

Vince

J.A.Sucker
05-06-2005, 04:57 PM
Nice post Vince, but I'm afraid that it's not terribly relevant. If you play against bad people (crooks, drug dealers, etc.), why would you not expect them to act as they normally do? I'm not saying that anything does or doesn't happen, but I think a smart gambler always knows to keep his eyes open, and the bigger you play, the more this is true.

cianosheehan
05-06-2005, 05:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Nice post Vince, but I'm afraid that it's not terribly relevant. If you play against bad people (crooks, drug dealers, etc.), why would you not expect them to act as they normally do? I'm not saying that anything does or doesn't happen, but I think a smart gambler always knows to keep his eyes open, and the bigger you play, the more this is true.

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I more got from it that it was a hommage to friendship and integrity and the underlying values that we assign ourselves to.

Vincent Lepore
05-06-2005, 08:53 PM
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Nice post Vince, but I'm afraid that it's not terribly relevant.

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I think that the vast majority of poker players behave in an honorable way. Yes, there are scoundrels out there but for the most part people want to look in the mirror and see a "good" guy. I might be wrong about this but I believe that Russ Georgiev feels this way too. I believe that he wants too look in the mirror and say "Hey, you are a good guy". He couldn't when he was cheating. Maybe he can now, if as he claims is just trying to enlighten the unenlightened. Believe it or not I do not care that RG was a cheat. My bone with him is that he makes accusations against others and provides no proof. My bone with RC and John Bond is that they lend credence to RG's claims and also provide no proof. I had a high degress of respect for Roy Cooke before this RG incident. I'm skeptical now.

"Honest poker" can only be accomplished by those that play it. The game itself is just a game. The players must "police" poker themselves, at least in live games.
Id on't play high and don't expect to so I don't know what goes on up there. I play mid limits. I have never seen, for sure, a deliberate act of cheating. I have seen fingernailed cards and players looking at their neighbors cards when they were somewhat careles with them but that's about it.

Quite frankly, even though I do not believe that there is rampant cheating going on in online poker rooms I understand the potential and I don't play there very often except for small SNG's.

Well I don't know if I made my post anymore relevant than it was but I tried.

Vince

Banvince.com
05-06-2005, 09:01 PM
Please keep your trolling to the appropriate forum, aka WPT.

Stew
05-06-2005, 10:49 PM
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Please keep your trolling to the appropriate forum, aka WPT.

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Your Nickname in and of itself is trolling and believe me, it sure seems like Vincent Lepore is a different person than Vince Lepore was.

Myrtle
05-07-2005, 07:09 AM
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Nice post Vince, but I'm afraid that it's not terribly relevant.

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I think that the vast majority of poker players behave in an honorable way. Yes, there are scoundrels out there but for the most part people want to look in the mirror and see a "good" guy. I might be wrong about this but I believe that Russ Georgiev feels this way too. I believe that he wants too look in the mirror and say "Hey, you are a good guy". He couldn't when he was cheating. Maybe he can now, if as he claims is just trying to enlighten the unenlightened. Believe it or not I do not care that RG was a cheat. My bone with him is that he makes accusations against others and provides no proof. My bone with RC and John Bond is that they lend credence to RG's claims and also provide no proof. I had a high degress of respect for Roy Cooke before this RG incident. I'm skeptical now.

"Honest poker" can only be accomplished by those that play it. The game itself is just a game. The players must "police" poker themselves, at least in live games.
Id on't play high and don't expect to so I don't know what goes on up there. I play mid limits. I have never seen, for sure, a deliberate act of cheating. I have seen fingernailed cards and players looking at their neighbors cards when they were somewhat careles with them but that's about it.

Quite frankly, even though I do not believe that there is rampant cheating going on in online poker rooms I understand the potential and I don't play there very often except for small SNG's.

Well I don't know if I made my post anymore relevant than it was but I tried.

Vince

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well spoken, Vincenzo...but as street kids we both had to learn at an early age that we always had to keep one eye open for the scumbags that were so often lurking on the periphery, waiting to make an easy score.

Those were some tough lessons, eh?

It hasn't changed, and probably never will. The only thing we can control is what arena we place ourselves in, and whether or not we share it with honorable people.............

Josh W
05-07-2005, 02:18 PM
Nice post, and I agree.

Unfortunately, since you only make this post when another poster (me) asks a question about "making poker honest", but not when Mason mentions "keeping poker honest" shows your deep rooted biases, and lessens your credibility.

Your point is still great, though.

Josh

Vincent Lepore
05-07-2005, 04:06 PM
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since you only make this post when another poster (me) asks a question about "making poker honest"....lessens your credibility,

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Credibility? I wasn't trying to do anything here. Just made a point. I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Vince

Josh W
05-07-2005, 04:38 PM
reread....especially "deep rooted biases".