This hand has had me thinking all day.

[justin D]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t2105)
Hero (t2350)
Button (t500)
SB (t1910)
BB (t1135)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t1000</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Final Pot: t1450

[Voltron87]

uhhhh... push?

[Bill Poker]

what kind of range does utg have? AQ+/99+? he is pot-committed. I would fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t2105)
Hero (t2350)
Button (t500)
SB (t1910)
BB (t1135)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t1000</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Final Pot: t1450

[/ QUOTE ]

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
what kind of range does utg have? AQ+/99+?

[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT?

More like AT+ (maybe even A8,7+), KJ-KQ, QJ, any pair down to 5's.

Push the J's. Folding this is SUPER WEAK. You've got what, 7BB's left? What are you waiting for? KK?

[flyby4553]

I really dont see how you can possibly fold here, push.

[treeofwisdom7]

i think you should consider what your opponent would bet with.. if he would bet with any low pocket pairs and and high cards then sure go all in. but if he had been playing tight fold. anything close to a coin flip and i think you should fold

[Bigwig]

Many, many, hands are up for discussion. This hand is an EASY PUSH. All of you advocating the consideration of a fold, I hope you play the 50s, and give me your usernames.

[treeofwisdom7]

your one of those big dick guys arent you.. but you really have a small pussy.. i play 5$ and i didnt say i was good just learning..
people like you might win in poker but in life your still gonna be a loser

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
your one of those big dick guys arent you.. but you really have a small pussy.. i play 5$ and i didnt say i was good just learning..
people like you might win in poker but in life your still gonna be a loser

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF?

Just trust me--you don't fold this hand.

[Bill Poker]

[ QUOTE ]


More like AT+ (maybe even A8,7+), KJ-KQ, QJ, any pair down to 5's.


[/ QUOTE ]

5/6 handed, I would only push these hands from Button/SB, maybe sometimes from CO. maybe its my leak....

[treeofwisdom7]

[ QUOTE ]
Many, many, hands are up for discussion. This hand is an EASY PUSH. All of you advocating the consideration of a fold, I hope you play the 50s, and give me your usernames.

[/ QUOTE ]
so in a ten handed game i should raise UTG with AQo.. what about KQo or KQs or AJs should i raise with those two?

[protoverus]

You have to realize that most winning players play tight during the first levels (creating a tight image as you say...). Then, they hammer the later levels with open pushes with almost anything. So, your recommendation plays exactly into the hands of what is considered the best winning strategy. The harsh words point out the magnitude of the mistake. If you're here to learn listen to the advice...if the tone is harsh it 'usually' indicates not a personal attack but flawed poker thinking..

Be well

[durron597]

I would go Tarzan on him.

http://www.musicman.com/8/traf.gif

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


More like AT+ (maybe even A8,7+), KJ-KQ, QJ, any pair down to 5's.


[/ QUOTE ]

5/6 handed, I would only push these hands from Button/SB, maybe sometimes from CO. maybe its my leak....

[/ QUOTE ]

If at the 150/300 level you have these standards, IT IS a leak. You do not have time to wait for better hands. Just stealing the blinds is worth pushing a huge range of hands.

[microbet]

I agree it's a push, but not the easiest push in history.

If he had pushed instead of raised to 1000 and his range was 55+, A9+ it would be $EV=0.

Does the smaller bet mean his range is tighter or looser? You really can't figure that out in one SNG and I would generally presume a looser range for the raise than a push. You probably have good FE on your push in fact.

Absent a read, I would probably push with 99 and fold 88. The 99 is pretty marginal and based on thinking I have decent FE eventhough he put half his stack in the pot.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Many, many, hands are up for discussion. This hand is an EASY PUSH. All of you advocating the consideration of a fold, I hope you play the 50s, and give me your usernames.

[/ QUOTE ]
so in a ten handed game i should raise UTG with AQo.. what about KQo or KQs or AJs should i raise with those two?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't raise with any of those in a ten handed game from UTG. I assume you're talking about when the blinds are low. Understand that your opening requirements change with many factors.

1. Position
2. Players left to act (not 'how many are in the game')
3. Stack sizes (both yours and those who are behind you)
4. Blind sizes
5. Payout structure (MTT vs. STT)
6. Table personality (aggressive or passive)

Early in a tournament, with deep stacks, not only would I refrain from raising KJ in MP, but I wouldn't even limp with it. However, many times late in the tournament, I'll shove my entire stack in the center if I'm the first in the pot.

[Bill Poker]

he raised half of his stake, he is already pot committed. I would generally presume it is a tighter range for the raise than a push (AQ+, 99+). You dont have FE on your push.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree it's a push, but not the easiest push in history.

If he had pushed instead of raised to 1000 and his range was 55+, A9+ it would be $EV=0.

Does the smaller bet mean his range is tighter or looser? You really can't figure that out in one SNG and I would generally presume a looser range for the raise than a push. You probably have good FE on your push in fact.

Absent a read, I would probably push with 99 and fold 88. The 99 is pretty marginal and based on thinking I have decent FE eventhough he put half his stack in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree it's a push, but not the easiest push in history.

If he had pushed instead of raised to 1000 and his range was 55+, A9+ it would be $EV=0.

Does the smaller bet mean his range is tighter or looser? You really can't figure that out in one SNG and I would generally presume a looser range for the raise than a push. You probably have good FE on your push in fact.

Absent a read, I would probably push with 99 and fold 88. The 99 is pretty marginal and based on thinking I have decent FE eventhough he put half his stack in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

My instinct is that one should fold 99 in this situation....at least based on my feel of some of the math I've looked at.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree it's a push, but not the easiest push in history.

If he had pushed instead of raised to 1000 and his range was 55+, A9+ it would be $EV=0.

Does the smaller bet mean his range is tighter or looser? You really can't figure that out in one SNG and I would generally presume a looser range for the raise than a push. You probably have good FE on your push in fact.

Absent a read, I would probably push with 99 and fold 88. The 99 is pretty marginal and based on thinking I have decent FE eventhough he put half his stack in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd actually probably fold 99, and push with TT. But J's are a no-brainer, IMO. I'd push back with J's against an MP raiser much earlier in the tourney.

[microbet]

Response to both you and curtains.

Fruitful post. JJ just got it going. At least the three of us put the border at 99 or TT. 99, I called marginal, and before pushing with 99 I would also consider whether the table was giving me enough stealing opportunities. If early players were raising or pushing nearly every time, I would be inclined to take this chance, but if I could expect to often be first in the pot from the button or SB I would be inclined to fold.

I'm encouraged every time Curtains disagrees with me because it is always in a relatively small way.

[treeofwisdom7]

actually after thinking about it i think you have to push all in.. but what about if he raised UTG should i still push?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
actually after thinking about it i think you have to push all in.. but what about if he raised UTG should i still push?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would stop thinking about UTG when you're 5 handed. Think of UTG in this situation as MP at a full table. What hands would an MP player raise with at a full table if it's been folded to him? Secondly, remember that most players understand (although not too many at the 5s) that it's better to raise with marginal hands late than early. This is because players are more willing to risk a 3BB raise to steal the blinds, and are less afraid of calls, because people will not be getting implied odds to 'see a flop.' The stacks aren't deep enough.

Early in a tournament, if someone UTG raised and I held J's in late position, I'll usually flat call. I might even fold, if it's for more than 10% of my stack.

[Bigwig]

BTW, there is a chance of course that the raiser has AA or KK, and is trying to induce action. However, there is another strong possibility. That he raised enough because he isn't afraid of the two smaller stacks, but he is AFRAID of the big stacks, and left himself some wiggle room. This says AJ/AT, 88/77 as much as it does AA or KK. I think you do have fold equity here. Sometimes.

[Bill Poker]

if you are UTG here, you have AA/KK/QQ would you bet 3BB or all in here? if you have 99 instead, what would you bet? thanks

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, there is a chance of course that the raiser has AA or KK, and is trying to induce action. However, there is another strong possibility. That he raised enough because he isn't afraid of the two smaller stacks, but he is AFRAID of the big stacks, and left himself some wiggle room. This says AJ/AT, 88/77 as much as it does AA or KK. I think you do have fold equity here. Sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

[BDarch]

[ QUOTE ]
if you are UTG here, you have AA/KK/QQ would you bet 3BB or all in here? if you have 99 instead, what would you bet? thanks

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, there is a chance of course that the raiser has AA or KK, and is trying to induce action. However, there is another strong possibility. That he raised enough because he isn't afraid of the two smaller stacks, but he is AFRAID of the big stacks, and left himself some wiggle room. This says AJ/AT, 88/77 as much as it does AA or KK. I think you do have fold equity here. Sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push all 4

[Blackjack]

What $ buy-in is that. It has a lot of bearing on the open raisers avg. range of opening hands.

[Bill Poker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are UTG here, you have AA/KK/QQ would you bet 3BB or all in here? if you have 99 instead, what would you bet? thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push all 4

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push all 4 too. so in the hand, UTG raised 3BB, what is the range of his hand? i would think he more likely has AQ+/TT+ than AT or small pairs (88,99)

[justin D]

$11

[BDarch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are UTG here, you have AA/KK/QQ would you bet 3BB or all in here? if you have 99 instead, what would you bet? thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push all 4

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push all 4 too. so in the hand, UTG raised 3BB, what is the range of his hand? i would think he more likely has AQ+/TT+ than AT or small pairs (88,99)

[/ QUOTE ]

But we would both also push a lot more hands besides those 4 I'm sure, and a majority of them he is a favorite against

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are UTG here, you have AA/KK/QQ would you bet 3BB or all in here? if you have 99 instead, what would you bet? thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push all 4

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push all 4 too. so in the hand, UTG raised 3BB, what is the range of his hand? i would think he more likely has AQ+/TT+ than AT or small pairs (88,99)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a mistake to assume that the raiser understands all the concepts of pot committed, etc. Remember, most of these guys are awful. Especially at the 11 level. It's okay if you want to assume that they're stronger because they raised less, but what if they do it constantly? Everyone runs into chronic mini-raisers. You don't put them on a big hand everytime, do you?

So absent a read, I'm pushing with my J's. Damn, I WISH I could get J's in this spot more often. I'll happily take them. Better than pushing with A5o, QTs, and other junk that I'm going to have to push with soon.

[Bill Poker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are UTG here, you have AA/KK/QQ would you bet 3BB or all in here? if you have 99 instead, what would you bet? thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push all 4

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push all 4 too. so in the hand, UTG raised 3BB, what is the range of his hand? i would think he more likely has AQ+/TT+ than AT or small pairs (88,99)

[/ QUOTE ]

But we would both also push a lot more hands besides those 4 I'm sure, and a majority of them he is a favorite against

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, if i am UTG, i would push AJ+/99+, and raise 3BB with AA/kk/QQ to try to induce some action. but, as bigwig said, it is my leak-:(, i should get more aggressive on bubble.

[microbet]

And no offense to you Bigwig, I'm encouraged to pretty much agree with you too. It's just that this is about the 3rd or 4th time recently Curtains has almost agreed with me.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a mistake to assume that the raiser understands all the concepts of pot committed, etc. Remember, most of these guys are awful. Especially at the 11 level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was about to make this same comment.

Why just today at the 50s I had a guy raise UTG for 800 with a 1500 stack and 150/300 blinds. I pushed with QQ (had him barely covered) he thought for a bit and folded.

[gumpzilla]

It is probably correct to push over the top here, but I don't think it is as clearcut a push as many people are suggesting in many situations. There are certain opponents where this half-stack move is going to mean a big, big hand; do you have any sense for whether he's one of them or not? Have you seen this guy play before? What's your impression of how he's playing? Has he pushed other hands, or minraised them, or has he been making 3x BB raises the whole time as his openers? You're still the big stack, so you're giving up quite a bit if you push and lose. I want this extra information that I'm asking for to make a decision in your spot.

If he seems at all loose, or has been playing these 3xBB raises the whole game, then I'm pushing here. If he's given me the impression that he knows how to work a shortstack, then this looks to me like it wants action and I might consider laying down.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Response to both you and curtains.

Fruitful post. JJ just got it going. At least the three of us put the border at 99 or TT. 99, I called marginal, and before pushing with 99 I would also consider whether the table was giving me enough stealing opportunities. If early players were raising or pushing nearly every time, I would be inclined to take this chance, but if I could expect to often be first in the pot from the button or SB I would be inclined to fold.

I'm encouraged every time Curtains disagrees with me because it is always in a relatively small way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I meant to say I completely disagree with you by a mile, and that whatever you said was way off.

[curtains]

TT is actually on the borderline for me, and would depend how I felt about some things...I think more than 50% of the time I'd fold it however. Again this is just based on some stuff I've looked at in the past, and could be off as the details might be different.

JJ I'd be very hard pressed to fold.

[microbet]

I think TT will turn out to be a call and I'll do the junior high math.

I think there is about a 18% chance UTG will fold to the push. Just a guess. What do you think about that, and what range do you put UTG on? I'm gonna just assume everyone behind folds. They may not, but it their calls will probably help you about as much as they hurt anyway.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

I think there is about a 18% chance UTG will fold to the push. Just a guess. What do you think about that, and what range do you put UTG on? I'm gonna just assume everyone behind folds. They may not, but it their calls will probably help you about as much as they hurt anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my biggest problem with this hand; what range do you put him on? Without any context from the game to go on, I think it's impossible, as I can't tell if this is a non-standard move for him or not, if he's tight or loose, etc.

[curtains]

Ok Im assuming very low fold equity, but I know that they do fold sometimes.

[prunch]

but whay happnes if you have a tell on him. He always sits very still when he has KK AA. Then you have have to fold!

[Misfire]

In lieu of any reads on villan, is this a situation where the lower the buy-in (and presumably the lower the calibur of player villan is) the tighter the range of hands he could be on, and therefore the more likely hero should be to fold his hand (maybe not JJ, but 99 or AQs or whatever)?

*sorry for the run-on

[gumpzilla]

I actually think that in this situation, the lower the buy-in the more likely I am to not really give this move any credit. At higher levels, I think more people are aware that when they have 5-6 BBs, they should probably be pushing preflop, so seeing somebody put half of their stack sets off alarm bells. So the better I think my opponent is, the more likely I think that I'm looking at QQ+, AK. This is a generalization, and it doesn't really apply in a vacuum; the other plays that this guy makes during the game are important for making the assessment here.