Passive Hand 30/60

[theBruiser500]

It seems to me if there is ever a time to check the flop it is right here. On the turn I am afraid of a c/r. On the river I am afraid they will call me weak. Thoughts?

PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 3.50 BB

[Jeffage]

Yea I hate how you played this. Bet the flop. If you get called, you can consider checking the turn. I'd like to see where I'm at and you likely have 6 outs if played with.

Jeff

[theBruiser500]

I know I don't need to win often for the flop bet to be profitable but what hands could they possibly have where they both fold? Also by checking I get a free card to hit somethign.

[Jeffage]

Betting may clear out a gutshot, etc. Something with something like Ace high may just fold. A bet can allow you to win the hand on the turn. A bet tells you where you're at in the hand so you're not in a guessing game. And yes, there is a slight chance you win on the flop.

Jeff

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I don't need to win often for the flop bet to be profitable but what hands could they possibly have where they both fold? Also by checking I get a free card to hit somethign.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands like 55 and A4s won't like this board. Another KQ probably doesn't bother peeling. ;-)

Also, part of the function on the flop bet is to set up a profitable bet on the turn. For example, ATo probably will call the flop bet with its gutshot/overcard, but likely not the turn if you bet again and it doesn't improve.

[I Play 2 Ski]

I see where your coming from, but I still bet this flop and take the free river.

[Roswell]

I would bet the turn. You have a straight draw plus overcards. If you are called, I would bet the river, as the draws missed and you can represent the jack.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting may clear out a gutshot, etc. Something with something like Ace high may just fold. A bet can allow you to win the hand on the turn. A bet tells you where you're at in the hand so you're not in a guessing game. And yes, there is a slight chance you win on the flop.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

You are throwing out a lot of standard reasons which don't really make sense here IMO. Gutshot: the only gutshot I can see that is folding is 64. "Bet can let you win on turn": Okay I bet the flop and now I need them to call not to raise, then what turn card could come that I am going to bet again on and win it?

"bet tells you where you're at so you're not in guessing games" what does that even mean in this context???

"slight chance win it on the flop": yeah if someone has A5 i can see them folding that, what other hands could they fold thouhg? I don't see many, they would both have to have ace rag and not pair up or hit a draw somewhere with that rag.

also there is the slight advantage to checking behing on flop that i pair up on turn where they would c/r me on flop.

[Your Mom]

I think always betting flops like these makes you predictable and way too easy to c/r. I don't mind a check here at all. You beat barely anything, can use a free card, and probably aren't folding the hands you do beat.

[theBruiser500]

Nate you always bet the flop in this situation? Sorry but a n00b question is coming up... you might just be describing a concept here (betting flop to set up profitable turn bet) that you don't always use, or don't use in this situation much...

If you are called in 2 spots I'm guessing you check behind turn all the time, if you are called in 1 spot, it seems like on the one hand most opponents would raise the flop with any draw or pair they are going with (needs defense on this board) so the turn bet would be profitable if they just call flop bet, but on the other hand these auto bets (auto bet flop, auto bet turn) just seem like hemoroging money. Rambling a bit here, but if you are called how often do you bet the turn?

[goofball]

Looks like a good flop to bet to me too. Whether or not to bet the turn depends on if you pick up the draw, if they both call you, etc etc.

If you bet the flop, you can check behind J turns while betting AKQ turns. This all seems like a profitable situation.

I think you should make a turn bet as well. Because the flop got checked around you can be less afraid of a checkraise.

[I Play 2 Ski]

I think if you bet the flop here, your most likely to get checked to on the turn. Now with that J hitting someone may check to you hoping to c/r and you would really like to see that river for free.

[tpir90036]

I don't think there is anything wrong with checking a flop like this once in a while. I mean you can't bet *every* time you raise pre-flop.

Normally I would bet this flop and then check behind on the turn when I picked up the outs if I was afraid of being C/Red.

But, given the way you played it... with 2 opponents I would think they would not risk a free turn card and it seems like no one is very intereseted... so I would probably bet the turn here. If you get C/Red it's not all bad as you have plenty of outs.

And it turns out you would have got a great bluffing card on the river if someone is calling you down with middle or third pair. Not that you could have known the river opportunity was coming /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Nate you always bet the flop in this situation? Sorry but a n00b question is coming up... you might just be describing a concept here (betting flop to set up profitable turn bet) that you don't always use, or don't use in this situation much...

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably just about always bet the flop against two opponents. The exceptions I guess are if my table image is extraordinarily poor, I'm up against opponents who will habitually check-raise with little-to-nothing, or perhaps if we're playing 3- or 4-handed and I've been overly relentless in previous hands, but 99/100 times I'm betting.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are called in 2 spots I'm guessing you check behind turn all the time, if you are called in 1 spot, it seems like on the one hand most opponents would raise the flop with any draw or pair they are going with (needs defense on this board) so the turn bet would be profitable if they just call flop bet, but on the other hand these auto bets (auto bet flop, auto bet turn) just seem like hemoroging money. Rambling a bit here, but if you are called how often do you bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd also usually bet the turn if they both called. The lone exception might be if a jack came.

I think it's important to bet the turn because a lot of hands like QJ, KJ, A9, AJ will peel one card on the flop with a gutshot but will fold without improving on the turn.

[goofball]

There are much better spots to throw in the odd check through. QJx flop in a 4+way pot with one card matching your AKs comes to mind

[theBruiser500]

"I'd also usually bet the turn if they both called."

I'm assuming you'd bet the turn if only one person called too. You are pretty aggressive! Would have worked in thsi hand too, one guy had 55 and the other guy had something wacky. Interesting thread, thanks all.

[tpir90036]

I agree completely. I would bet this flop a great majority of the time... but in my opinion people auto-bet the flop way too frequently and this check is not some sort of horribly -EV play.

[steveyz]

I think you have to bet this flop. You can probably clear out hands like A5 and make better decisions on the turn &amp; river. If called on the flop I'd check the turn and river probably.

[Vagos]

The key is if they have a nine after you bet the flop, most players will just lead out on the turn as they know you are likely to check behind.
So that being said, I don't mind betting flop and if you are called by one player, betting the turn as well.

-Andy

[flub]

There's tons of hands they can fold. AJ, KJ, Ax, low pairs, KQ, JQ, 34s, Kxs. They might not fold them every time, but they will sometimes.

-f

[TheBusiness]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me if there is ever a time to check the flop it is right here. On the turn I am afraid of a c/r. On the river I am afraid they will call me weak. Thoughts?

PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 3.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like UTG limped with a really small pair and SB has Ax soooted or some crap like that. You have position, you should bet the flop to see where you are at. I think they will both fold more frequently than you think, and even if they don't you have some outs. If they call the flop, I check behind on the turn when you pick up a pretty good draw. If you hit the draw, and they bet out the river thinking you are weak, you can get an extra bet out of them. If you miss completely, easy fold if they bet.

Given that you did not bet the flop, however, I'd bet the turn. Precisely because they will expect the preflop raiser with position to bet the flop when checked to, your flop check will scare them if their hand is weak, and they don't have good odds to call a big bet on the turn when no one bet the flop, so I think you will get some hands that beat you to fold the turn, like small pairs and ace high. If their hand is strong, then after you checked behind on the flop, they will bet out the turn not wanting to miss any more bets, and then you have an easy fold. Sorry, maybe not an easy fold since you picked up the draw, but at least you'll know where they stand and can consider your turn options with more information.