Ciaffone and Brier

[FoodForThought]

What is your take on "Middle Limit Holdem Poker" by Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier? I'm wrestling with the advice they give.

[stigmata]

There have been several good discussions of this book in the Books/Publications forum. Search there in subject only, newer than 1 year for +Middle +Limit -"Re:".

The general consensus (which I agree with) is that the allegations of weak-tight are slightly unfair. In the games that these hands were taken from (tough, but perhaps straightfoward) the advice is probably correct. What with all the donkish and tricky behaviour in current internet games, then adaptations are needed. Also, if you keep making some of these "big laydowns", people will start playing into you. If these considerations are taken into account, I think it is excellent material.

SSH taught me how to raise, MLH taught me how to fold!

[FoodForThought]

[ QUOTE ]
SSH taught me how to raise, MLH taught me how to fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL...yeah, I couldn't help but notice all the 'fold' recommendations. Simply raise them on the turn and you win.

Thanks for responding.

[onegymrat]

Hi Food,

Middle Limit Holdem is still my favorite book of all (with respect to John Feeney /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) mainly because it establishes a great foundation of what middle limit thinking is about. Many players on this forum have chastised this book as too weak-tight for today's play. This may be correct in some respect, but remember that this book was written for live play (10/20 to 40/80) prior to the Party Poker explosion. The opponents in which they dueled were not as nutty as the current players that we face.

That being said, most players jump right to the criticism of sample hands, and never referred to the brilliant introductions to the chapters, which gives you much thought about the psychology of middle limits. This book is great as a complement to other good books out there. The chapters regarding drawing hands and avoiding trouble are among my favorites.

Don't knock the book until you've read it thoroughly. The two pros must have been doing something right to get to their level.
Simply raise them on the turn and you win.

Oh, if only it were that simple every time! Good luck.

[bernie]

This book really got my wheels turning again. Particularly the overcards and bluffing sections. It really makes you look at flops and consider players.

One thing I noticed is, since they are hands from students, on some hands, you can see mistakes that are made up to the point in question. To me it showed just how much easier it is to play many of those situations had the prior streets been played better.

I think it's a great book.

It will make you seriously think about your game.

b

[I Play 2 Ski]

I have been contemplating buying this book. Thanks, your post just made me pull the trigger

[surfdoc]

Half way through it. No disrespect to the authors but so far I think the title should be "Folding for Middle Limit Holdem".

Strange for a player like me who was trained somewhat weak tight by HFAP to be saying this but so far the advice is very weak tight.

[helpmeout]

One of the best books out there if not the best.

You arent suppose to copy them in every situation, you are suppose to adjust your play based on certain situations against certain opponents.

People who constantly say the book is weaktight just arent thinking about the game enough.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Simply raise them on the turn and you win.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, there really were a lot of games where no one ever raised the turn unless they had a very strong hand (almost always better than one pair). The advice in that book is exploitable by someone who raises the turn a lot, but they were playing in games where people didn't really do that. The book wasn't trying to give game theoretically sound advice. It was trying to give advice that would actually work in the games they played. Remember too that these guys aren't stupid. Even though they say that you should fold the turn in a lot of spots, this is assuming their regular opponents. If they see that someone raises light on the turn, they will catch on and will stop folding so much.

[bobbyi]

Everyone should read this book. Even if you don't like the specific plays they advise, the thinking is very useful to read. It is probably the best holdem book I have read in terms of addressing flop texture. I think this is one of the things that takes a while to learn and is very important.

I have long thought that while most holdem books only focus on "how to play one pair", "how to play trips", etc, if I wrote a book, I would organize it around flop texture. How might you play a KK2r flop with different hands? What about JT8 twotone? What makes these flops different and how will opponents relate to them? etc.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
This book really got my wheels turning again. Particularly the overcards and bluffing sections.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you like the bluffing discussion in MLH (and it's pretty hard not to), you should check out Ciaffone's Improve Your Poker. That book has a series of essays about bluffing that I thought were really good as well.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
The general consensus (which I agree with) is that the allegations of weak-tight are slightly unfair. In the games that these hands were taken from (tough, but perhaps straightfoward) the advice is probably correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

The book was written four years ago. Since then, there has been an overall shift upward in average aggression (not just in internet games). The modern games have many players who are more aggressive with marginal hands than the games of four years ago.

The book is probably still a good read for anyone who wants to play a weekday afternoon Las Vegas middle limit game. In most other games around the country, you will get run over in short order.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL...yeah, I couldn't help but notice all the 'fold' recommendations. Simply raise them on the turn and you win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Brier does a good job reviewing hands in Cardplayer. Someone posted a bogus thread about Ciaffone writing a book making him look like a fool and I think it's funny how a guy with his experience is afforded so little respect. Maybe I'm wrong, but somehow I don't see him being that easy to run over.

[helpmeout]

[ QUOTE ]
The book is probably still a good read for anyone who wants to play a weekday afternoon Las Vegas middle limit game. In most other games around the country, you will get run over in short order.

[/ QUOTE ]

If people are as stupid as you then yes.

I assume most people who have a brain and actually use it will learn a great deal from this book.

When you read a book you are suppose to think about the things the author/s say.

If you read a book to copy what an author says in every situation you shouldnt be playing poker.

[Jeff W]

I agree with helpmeout. MLH improved my game more than any other poker book except TOP.

[NLSoldier]

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I agree with helpmeout. MLH improved my game more than any other poker book except TOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I guess I am going to have to go steal Surfdoc's copy once he finishes it.

[Jeff W]

I'd like to emphasize again that you must adapt the recommendations to the games you play.

The important things I improved by reading MLH are as follows:

1. Interpreting my opponent's actions.
2. Reading the board texture.
3. Ensuring that my actions are purposeful.

That being said, you can learn much more from playing, reading these forums and posting hands, but MLH was a good foundation for my game when I started out. You are a 10/20 player, so MLH is probably not going to induce a quantum leap in your game.