Another $%@* KK post

[sng-sam]

This seems to be happening to me alot.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t790)
Hero (t775)
SB (t785)
BB (t785)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t505)
UTG+2 (t1160)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t135</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls t120, MP3 folds.

Flop: (t325) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, Hero???

[Sam T.]

I'm assuming this is a low buy-in tournament, so:

Hero bets t150-175, and shuts it down if called. Players here LOVE their aces, so I have found that it is +EV to assume that villain has if he calls a raise. That said, you still have to bet here. If he calls your bet he MAY be on a club draw, but the ace is more likely, and he WILL call you down with ATo.

It's tough not to fall in love with your big starting hands, but I was looking at my 9-10 finishes last night, and a good number of them come when I refuse to believe that some clown called my PF raise with 97o, and flopped a str8.

Sam

[jacks321]

Definitely bet about half the pot. If the villian doesn't have an ace, it's likely he'll fold. In a low buyin, villian is probably calling down with any ace, so if he calls I go into check-fold mode.

[Scuba Chuck]

Here is my advice. In terms of your bet. Pretend you have AK. If you had AK here how much would you bet? You need to act the way you would if you had strength. IMO, if I had AK with two clubs on the flop, I'd bet the pot. At least 300. If you get called or raised, you're done with this hand. If villain had AJ or better, he leads out here. If he has a weaker ace he checks, looking for weakness. If he has anything else, he's done with this hand if you bet.

Same thing happened to me last night in a MTT. Full table, monster blinds, and I was dealt QQ. I raised to 4xBB, and SB called. Flop came ace high. Checked to me, and I bet the pot and took it down. This happens often by the way.

PS - if there are more than one other person in the hand, I would be much more likely to muck, check behind, etc. Reason being is that I'm less likely to make a serious bet with three+ people, and I always seem to get check-raised. They probably smell weakness, but who knows.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is my advice. In terms of your bet. Pretend you have AK. If you had AK here how much would you bet? You need to act the way you would if you had strength. IMO, if I had AK with two clubs on the flop, I'd bet the pot. At least 300. If you get called or raised, you're done with this hand. If villain had AJ or better, he leads out here. If he has a weaker ace he checks, looking for weakness. If he has anything else, he's done with this hand if you bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP only has 640 left. Betting 300 seems excessive. Maybe 200.

A lot of weak players will just check down something like TT here. Therefore, checking isn't really that bad. If he checks the turn, you can bet 200 on the turn, or just keep checking.

[snap]

You have to bet here. Since you raised pre-flop its very unlikely that he has a 5, so you can put him on a club draw, a weak ace, or squat. A pot sized (or just under) bet will give you a better idea of where you stand. If you check to him and he bets the turn, you'll have no idea where you stand in the hand.

[hummusx]

At first I was like, 'yeah I agree' and then I saw you say to bet at least 300. If I had AK here, I'm not betting 300. Anyone that is sticking around for 200 on a club draw has a very good chance of sticking around for 300 on a club draw. I'd bet 2/3 of the pot with AK, and that's probably what I do here.

[Scuba Chuck]

Well, I'm curious what buyin this is.

PVS, I don't disagree with your post. Especially with regard to the bet size. I marginally disagree with Hummus on the flush draw point, especially if villain has something like QJ/images/graemlins/club.gif. But, I will cede this point.

But to checking it down, I wholeheartedly don't agree with checking it down here. I think you have to bet. I don't want to give villain two free cards to complete a fullboat.

[Phil Van Sexton]

I don't want to give free cards either, but that's not my main concern. Given our stack size, I can't worry about such things. If he hits his 22:1 boat or his 5:1 flush on the turn, he'll bet and I'll fold. Oh well.

I'm much more worried that checking will allow him to bet and take the pot away from me on the turn. Against the passive player that he appears to be, you can often risk that.

It's pretty borderline. Betting 200 leaves you with 440. Pretty crappy, but workable I guess.

Depending on my mood, I sometimes prefer to be a bit more sure that he doesn't have an Ace before I commit more money to this hand. I can do this by checking and seeing what he does on the turn.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Depending on my mood, I sometimes prefer to be a bit more sure that he doesn't have an Ace before I commit more money to this hand. I can do this by checking and seeing what he does on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Talk more. Let's say villain bets the turn. You don't know if he has an Ace or TT. I am of the opinion that you're through with this hand if he bets, is that correct?

I know that weak-tight play is very advantageous in tournaments, and I regularly employ that. Furthermore, the hand range that villain calls a large raise with includes many aces. That being said, which ace hands do you think villain checks the flop on? What is the likely thought process of villain if he does have a hand like A7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (after he's checked)?

This line of thinking, btw, is what has lead me to bet the pot here, not less.

[beeyjay]

i bet 150. if its a 33 hell probably throw away a real weak ace. lower than that i dont really know. for what its worth i dont think he even hit the ace.

[Rosencrantz1]

Just a question, since I'm really just starting my SnG education:

Is a 8xBB raise recommended here? My own instinct would have been a 4-5xBB raise PF.

Thanks.

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a question, since I'm really just starting my SnG education:

Is a 8xBB raise recommended here? My own instinct would have been a 4-5xBB raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

At anything below $50's, the 8xBB raise isn't bad - you'll typically still get a caller or two, and your two goals preflop are obviously to get it down to 2- or 3-handed, and to juice the pot. You'll also be able to narrow their potential holdings down a bit. Your typical opponent at these levels often will see no difference between the 4xBB riase and the 8xBB raise, so you might as well exploit that.

At $50's and above, nobody's calling an 8xBB bet without JJ or AK, and your 4x or 5xBB is more optimal.

Good question.

[sng-sam]

a: buy in was 20+2 ( I moved up thanks to yall)
b: I did bet pot and he did fold ( i just didn't enjoy it)
c: 8x BB PFR was due to Irie's (i think) suggestion to bet 3-4x BB +(2xlimpers)

[Rosencrantz1]

Thx.

[Noel Montgomery]

Fire a 2/3 pot bet and fold to a reraise.

You cannot check here. There's a very good chance that the button has no Ace, and checking gives him the pot (if he knows what he's doing). Your preflop raise looks a lot like AK anyways, so you want him to keep believing that.

He's quite likely to be playing 77, 88, 99.

[Noel Montgomery]

IMO a pot bet is too much here even with the flush draw. Betting 2/3 pot still gives the draw incorrect odds to call and saves you some if he reraises with an Ace.

If you bet 2/3 and he calls with the draw you should be happy, because he's playing incorrect odds.

If a blank comes on the turn, now there's a decision to be made. I push. If he has an ace, so be it...but he didn't play it well. He certainly should have reraised the flop with the draw on the board.

[Scuba Chuck]

bump