A hand worth a discussion

[FreakDaddy]

Villian(CO) is LAG bordering on maniac. Stats after 50 hands : VP$IP 68 / PFR 35% / PFA 6.8

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 ($24.75)
MP1 ($13.9)
MP2 ($10)
MP3 ($24.75)
CO ($56.75)
Button ($36.53)
Hero ($34.5)
BB ($31.7)
UTG ($19.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $1.1</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $1.10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.85.

I make a loose flop call OOP hoping to isolate CO after flop.

Flop: ($4.65) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $10</font>, Hero calls $8.

I lead out seeing where the table is at. I make another loose flop call. CO had been man handling the table and overbetting the by extreme amounts several times. Also making obnoxious raises pre-flop 20x-30x BB.

Turn: ($24.65) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero calls $23.40 (All-In), CO calls $23.40.

I push here. I figure I'm either already ahead, but if not I have a LOT of outs. All my heart outs I believe are clean as well, so I'm not too woried. I give villian about a 55/45 call/fold ratio here. That combined with my outs and the slim possibility I'm ahead has me push.

River: ($71.45) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $71.45

Comments on all streets appreciated.

[phil_ivey_fan]

Did you put villain on a hand, or were you just going to call this one down no matter what? The only thing I like about his hand is your push on the turn. You should have potted the flop or check raised it. Your weak bet is just bloating the pot, one inwhich you are OOP and only have middle pair. You wanna take it down there. The only thing really going for you is that CO is portraying the image of a bully and your hand *might* be good. What did you think about his flop raise? Its up to you to make a read (based on past table action -- have you been paying attention?) Without reads, I fold. Simply for the reason that there will be a better time to tango w/ CO. And plus your hand isn't that strong.

its been a while since I've been on the 25NL tables, but I wouldn't be shocked if he showed you a flush.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you put villain on a hand, or were you just going to call this one down no matter what? The only thing I like about his hand is your push on the turn. You should have potted the flop or check raised it. Your weak bet is just bloating the pot, one inwhich you are OOP and only have middle pair. You wanna take it down there. The only thing really going for you is that CO is portraying the image of a bully and your hand *might* be good. What did you think about his flop raise? Its up to you to make a read (based on past table action -- have you been paying attention?) Without reads, I fold. Simply for the reason that there will be a better time to tango w/ CO. And plus your hand isn't that strong.

its been a while since I've been on the 25NL tables, but I wouldn't be shocked if he showed you a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

My initial read was Jx - which could be any kind of kicker based on the hands I was seeing villian play. My initial flop bet was only to see where people were as there were other people to act and my hand wasn't that great. When I'm raised on the flop I change my read to Kx, so I know I'm behind to something. The turn push is my biggest question. Considering that I'm likely behind against a laggy opponent and I'm only 50/50 happy with it, how good is this play really? Villian showed Js, 5s and I took down the pot, and he made several comments about how he liked the turn push. Go figure.

[FreakDaddy]

Bump. This hand isn't really that interesting? No one has comments on the push? Oh well. Chip spewing or good read, such a fine line.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Bump. This hand isn't really that interesting? No one has comments on the push? Oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's really pretty ugly and not at all how i would have played it. it's so different there's not much i can say about it.

[ QUOTE ]
Chip spewing or good read, such a fine line.

[/ QUOTE ]

true.

[wtfsvi]

I reraise preflop to 5-7. (If I think I will get 1 or 0 callers.)

The way you played it preflop I bet more on the flop and fold to the raise.

The push seems fine to me if you think there's a fair chance he'll fold.

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
My initial read was Jx - which could be any kind of kicker based on the hands I was seeing villian play. My initial flop bet was only to see where people were as there were other people to act and my hand wasn't that great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Initial read when...? Are you reading his PF call as Jx? If so, you could control the poker world.

[ QUOTE ]
When I'm raised on the flop I change my read to Kx, so I know I'm behind to something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, and you called his massive raise because...you knew you were going to hit runner runner here? Again, total domination of the game with this knowledge.

Please explain how any of this makes sense, and how this isn't just a horribly played hand that worked out in the end with a lot of luck.

-T

[Rumblebelly]

&gt; The way you played it preflop I bet more on the flop and fold to the raise.

And then what do you do to the call? Come out betting more on the turn, or check and see what he will do? That is where I get messed up. I can either throw money keep betting getting called growing the pot to his better hand, or show weakness and most likely have him make a bet I can't call.

Thanks!

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bump. This hand isn't really that interesting? No one has comments on the push? Oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's really pretty ugly and not at all how i would have played it. it's so different there's not much i can say about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let me help. I hate the pre-flop call, I would have raised and here's why... or that turn push is horrible, this this and that. It's called discussion. You may learn something.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My initial read was Jx - which could be any kind of kicker based on the hands I was seeing villian play. My initial flop bet was only to see where people were as there were other people to act and my hand wasn't that great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Initial read when...? Are you reading his PF call as Jx? If so, you could control the poker world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. Good question. This hand is purely based on my reads of villian. When I say I placed him on Jx, this of course is a 'loose read'. Like I said he'd been over betting second pairs quite often. I read the flop raise as another move to force people off the hand. It's not really that big of a stretch in this situation. Against any other opponents I'd drop this hand.
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
When I'm raised on the flop I change my read to Kx, so I know I'm behind to something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, and you called his massive raise because...you knew you were going to hit runner runner here? Again, total domination of the game with this knowledge.

Please explain how any of this makes sense, and how this isn't just a horribly played hand that worked out in the end with a lot of luck.

-T

[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]
I need to clarify that I thought it was 50/50 that villian had Kx. I still have a slight possibility that I'm ahead. My thinking is that if I called the bet and pushed on the turn, that I had a decent shot of getting villian to drop the hand OR catch a good turn card that gave me a lot of possibilities, which is what happened. Again, against most opponents I wouldn't play the hand this way. I'd fold the flop raise or even pre-flop.

I understand that most people on this forum have problems with a hyper-aggresive style of play. I know it's easier to sit back with a 15% VP$IP and play ABC poker. I'd rather develop my reads at this level and experiment while the poker is cheap.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I reraise preflop to 5-7. (If I think I will get 1 or 0 callers.)

The way you played it preflop I bet more on the flop and fold to the raise.

The push seems fine to me if you think there's a fair chance he'll fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pre-flop re-raise isn't a bad idea, and if I were going to play this hand against most opponents in a raised pot OOP that's what I would do, but I elected not to for good reason. Villian had a tendency to go over the top and I wanted to play the cards cheap, hit the flop or bail. It was a marginal hit and a gutsy post flop play.

I wanted to make more of a probing bet and I thought the re-raise call showed decent enough strength to worry villian. He knows I'm not some fish, so he had to think a long while (almost timed out) on the turn push call.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, let me help. I hate the pre-flop call, I would have raised and here's why... or that turn push is horrible, this this and that. It's called discussion. You may learn something.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay

- i'd fold preflop
- i wouldn't bet out on the flop with 2nd pair and the preflop action
- i certainly wouldn't call the raise, maniac or not
- i wouldn't have pushed with 3rd pair and a gutshot

nice hand

EDIT: this is the kind of move you make on a tight player, not a maniac. you're supposed to use your opponent's weakness against him. if they call too much, then value bet everything; if they bet too much, let them take the lead and hang themselves.

[TheWorstPlayer]

There is absolutely, positively, 100%, ZERO chance this guy is folding a better hand on the turn. Therefore, the turn push is horrendous. He is saying VERY clearly on the flop that his plan is to get all-in here. If you have a better hand than he does, he OBVIOUSLY wants to push you off it. A free card on the turn is the LAST thing you should be worried about. Therefore, check/call is FAR superior to your push. Betting is absolutely dreadful, dude.

[wtfsvi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
- i'd fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you notice the guy raises 35% of hands preflop? You can't fold AJ I think. I suppose calling is not much better maybe, but why don't you reraise?

EDIT: Oh damn, CO wasn't the preflop raiser. Then I agree. This has to be folded preflop, unless MP1 has equally loose raising standards of course.

[wtfsvi]

Sorry, I misread this. I thought CO was the original raiser.

If MP1 has a more normal raising range, I think this is an easy fold preflop and a check on the flop. Whether or not to call a flop bet from CO and whether to push or check-call the turn if you get there is more difficult.

[poboy]

I'm not going to comment on how good or bad I think this play was, I think others have already said it all. But I do have a question. If you hadn't drawn out would you have still posted the hand wanting to know if it was a good play or not?

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to comment on how good or bad I think this play was, I think others have already said it all. But I do have a question. If you hadn't drawn out would you have still posted the hand wanting to know if it was a good play or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the result is irrelevent either way. There are a LOT of questionable plays in this hand, so I thought it would be worth a discussion. I pretty much know most people aren't going to like or understand this hand.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, let me help. I hate the pre-flop call, I would have raised and here's why... or that turn push is horrible, this this and that. It's called discussion. You may learn something.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay

1 - i'd fold preflop
2 - i wouldn't bet out on the flop with 2nd pair and the preflop action
3 - i certainly wouldn't call the raise, maniac or not
4 - i wouldn't have pushed with 3rd pair and a gutshot

nice hand

EDIT: this is the kind of move you make on a tight player, not a maniac. you're supposed to use your opponent's weakness against him. if they call too much, then value bet everything; if they bet too much, let them take the lead and hang themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, glad you decided to play. Let me say a few things about your comments because I think they're all valid of course.
1) Typically I agree. I was only worried about pre-flop raiser on this hand and I dropped in on this hand hoping to hit the flop big and play against CO. Risky call? Of course. Look, villian had Js,5s how bad really was my read?
2) I think that would be a mistake to check this hand. I bet 1/3 of the pot to see where I stand. What do you know, pre-flop raiser dropped, what are the odds of that happening at 25NL with a 4xBB raise. Very good. If I'm called by pre-flop raiser, I'm done with the hand.
3) If you saw a player overbetting the pot 4-10x continusiously, would you contemplate changing your mind, or are you going to sit back and let him steal every pot? Just curious.
4) I had 3rd pair, an overcard, a flush draw and a gutshot straight draw. Plus there was a slight chance that I was already ahead cosidering villians previous plays. Count all the outs. Now take into account the times villian is going to fold, maniac or not with a possible flush and straight on board. Now do the math. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I agree about your push comment. Good poker comes from playing the opposite of your opponent. Good comment.

[Malachii]

Without reading the other posts, it sounds like Villain put you on tilt and you played with your balls instead of your head. Even stupid LAGs wake up with a hand, I think I wait for a better spot to take his money. LAGs are very good at making solid players overplay their hands.

[poboy]

I think everyone understands this hand, but not many are going to like it. The reason being is that villian is going to show down Kx often enough to make this a long-term loser, and you're not going to knock him off it. In order for a semi-bluff to be considered there has to be some chance that villian will fold, and this villian obviously will not do so. Also try to put your opponents on a range of hands(very difficult against LAG/Maniacs), he could very easily be holding A/images/graemlins/heart.gifx or a str8 draw. Which would obviously taint some of your outs. So given that you could already be behind,villian will not fold, and alot of your outs could be dirty , this looks very -ev. JMO

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that most people on this forum have problems with a hyper-aggresive style of play. I know it's easier to sit back with a 15% VP$IP and play ABC poker. I'd rather develop my reads at this level and experiment while the poker is cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't get my VPIP under 25 if my life depended on it, nor would I want to. But there is a huge difference between laggy play and smart-laggy play, and this particular hand falls in the former category, IMO. You force your opponent to respect your play, nor can you make you hand better than it is. I am not judging you as a player, but I am judging the hand you posted here, and it is poorly played IMO. Take that for what it is.

As for this hand, what did villain have and how was your read?

-T

[TheWorstPlayer]

I think he already said that he had Js5s, so his read was (surprisingly /images/graemlins/wink.gif) spot on. I completely agree with you, though, that even ignoring all else this hand was played brutally on the turn.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Without reading the other posts, it sounds like Villain put you on tilt and you played with your balls instead of your head. Even stupid LAGs wake up with a hand, I think I wait for a better spot to take his money. LAGs are very good at making solid players overplay their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, except I wasn't on tilt or anywhere near it.

[TrailofTears]

Sorry, I got lost in the mass of posts here. Thanks for the results, Gogg.

-T

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand that most people on this forum have problems with a hyper-aggresive style of play. I know it's easier to sit back with a 15% VP$IP and play ABC poker. I'd rather develop my reads at this level and experiment while the poker is cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't get my VPIP under 25 if my life depended on it, nor would I want to. But there is a huge difference between laggy play and smart-laggy play, and this particular hand falls in the former category, IMO. You force your opponent to respect your play, nor can you make you hand better than it is. I am not judging you as a player, but I am judging the hand you posted here, and it is poorly played IMO. Take that for what it is.

As for this hand, what did villain have and how was your read?

-T

[/ QUOTE ]

We're allowed to have different opinions about it. I think great poker comes from the reads you're making at the table and it's really difficult to fully discet/understand a particular hand that varies from the 'typical' poker situation. Regardless, I was hoping to get some discussion about the thought processes that go into making great reads and playing styles against particular opponents.

Villian had Js,5s.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I think everyone understands this hand, but not many are going to like it. The reason being is that villian is going to show down Kx often enough to make this a long-term loser, and you're not going to knock him off it. In order for a semi-bluff to be considered there has to be some chance that villian will fold, and this villian obviously will not do so. Also try to put your opponents on a range of hands(very difficult against LAG/Maniacs), he could very easily be holding A/images/graemlins/heart.gifx or a str8 draw. Which would obviously taint some of your outs. So given that you could already be behind,villian will not fold, and alot of your outs could be dirty , this looks very -ev. JMO

[/ QUOTE ]

While after the flop raise I placed villian on Kx and had a solid feeling that obviously I was behind, I also had a decent enough read to believe that my call and push would make him lay the hand down, even against a maniac. There's one thing I think people are overlooking about this hand and I hope I can bring it to light. A lot of maniacs that know poker have a tendency to back off when more aggression is shown towards them. Why? Because if they know that you haven't been in a lot of pots AND you are willing to put yourself all-in they'll drop their hands when faced with counter-aggression. I didn't read villian as an idiot maniac, but as a semi-knowledgable maniac. If he was an idiot maniac, then I never would have taken this line. And I firmly believe that if my read was correct and he had Kx, that he would have laid this hand down. The fact that he had bottom two pair and I still ALMOST made him lay the hand down still confirms my read. His comments after the hand further confirmed it and he gave me nothing but respect from that point on. The whole hand is questionable, but in my overall view, after listening and reflecting on it, I think a great hand. I'm enjoying the discussion though.

[beset7]

I think I was the villain in this hand. Seriously. When was this? PM me your party name if you want me to confirm.

I've been playing 200nl but after a long-night of final exam prep I was too tired to play that high so I decided to go suckout on people in the 25nl for kicks. Was my vpip really that high? Are you sure about the 20-30xBB preflop raises? I remember raising the pot after a bunch of limpers numerous times but nothing like that. But i'm almost sure I remember this J5 hand.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I was the villain in this hand. Seriously. When was this? PM me your party name if you want me to confirm.

[/ QUOTE ]

now that's funny

[TreyOfLight]

[ QUOTE ]
The pre-flop re-raise isn't a bad idea, and if I were going to play this hand against most opponents in a raised pot OOP that's what I would do, but I elected not to for good reason. Villian had a tendency to go over the top and I wanted to play the cards cheap, hit the flop or bail. It was a marginal hit and a gutsy post flop play.
...
The whole hand is questionable, but in my overall view, after listening and reflecting on it, I think a great hand. I'm enjoying the discussion though.

[/ QUOTE ]Headsup with a maniac and allin preflop with AJo is a solid play, maybe.

Postflop, 4-way and oop with that same AJo and a raised pot is a freaking abortion. What was your plan if MP1, BB and UTG+1 called you on the flop? How about if the maniac reraised them all after that? Maybe he's just being maniacal and your jacks are good, but you've no clue what the other three hold. Your position cripples you.

In general, postflop play with maniacs is best avoided because (a) they're more willing to lose their stack than you are, and (b) you can't put them on a hand.

There will be other hands, hands where you aren't in the SB and raised by a third party, and other chances to take the maniac's stack. Be patient.

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, postflop play with maniacs is best avoided because (a) they're more willing to lose their stack than you are, and (b) you can't put them on a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to go ahead and say postflop play with maniacs is hugely profitable. (a) is a benefit of their play style, and (b) doesn't matter, as long as it is worse than yours.

-T

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Bump. This hand isn't really that interesting? No one has comments on the push? Oh well. Chip spewing or good read, such a fine line.

[/ QUOTE ]

here's the discussion this hand warrants:

fold preflop.

fim

edit: in response to your inevitable reply: fold preflop or re-raise. I'd probably re-raise, but if you want the easy answer, ditch AJ even against such a wide range of possible holdings.

[Siawyn]

I fold this preflop because AJo is crap out of position to a raise.

Flop -- this isn't the hand to take a stand with. Forget about it. If he's "man handling the table" surely you can bust him when you flop TPTK.

preflop is where it all starts though, and all the other errors compound from that.

[TreyOfLight]

[ QUOTE ]
[willingness to lose] is a benefit of their play style, and [being unable to put them on a hand] doesn't matter, as long as his is worse than yours.

[/ QUOTE ]
But doesn't that mean the maniac obligates YOU to make a hand, or to call with ace-high? I'm sure postflop calling standards are just a math problem but it sounds like a hard one.

"Avoid" was a bad choice of word by me. It's not that postflop isn't profitable, it's that preflop is a goldmine.

Sound preflop play is uncomplicated. Maniacs don't use it, though and that's an exploitable leak. When I say "avoid postflop play with maniacs", I mean by getting all-in or committed before the flop.

Ancillary benefit!! faux maniacs (like our villain, apparently) are forced to fold.

The maniac wins by forcing you to make decisions. Each time he does, you have a chance to err. The more decisions per hand, the less you win.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The pre-flop re-raise isn't a bad idea, and if I were going to play this hand against most opponents in a raised pot OOP that's what I would do, but I elected not to for good reason. Villian had a tendency to go over the top and I wanted to play the cards cheap, hit the flop or bail. It was a marginal hit and a gutsy post flop play.
...
The whole hand is questionable, but in my overall view, after listening and reflecting on it, I think a great hand. I'm enjoying the discussion though.

[/ QUOTE ]Headsup with a maniac and allin preflop with AJo is a solid play, maybe.

Postflop, 4-way and oop with that same AJo and a raised pot is a freaking abortion. What was your plan if MP1, BB and UTG+1 called you on the flop? How about if the maniac reraised them all after that? Maybe he's just being maniacal and your jacks are good, but you've no clue what the other three hold. Your position cripples you.

In general, postflop play with maniacs is best avoided because (a) they're more willing to lose their stack than you are, and (b) you can't put them on a hand.

There will be other hands, hands where you aren't in the SB and raised by a third party, and other chances to take the maniac's stack. Be patient.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stated this in other posts. If I was called with my flop lead out by anyone other than maniac I was going to be done with the hand.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I was the villain in this hand. Seriously. When was this? PM me your party name if you want me to confirm.

[/ QUOTE ]

now that's funny

[/ QUOTE ]

Atleast you thought it was funny swolfe. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I didn't get a PM...