I like this...PVS on Lvl. 4 when well equipped.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
If I had to oversimplify a strategy for levels 1-4 on PartyPoker, it would be: "get ready for level 5".

The huge jump from level 4 to 5 is really the most significant event in party SnGs. If you survive it, you are in great shape to cash.

Therefore, once I get to 1200-1600 chips, I'll be super-tight on level 4. I've already achieved my "goal" of being ready for level 5 and I don't feel the need to risk that for 150 chips.

Even with 900-1100 chips, you can play tight on level 4 if the timing of the blind change is right. If the blinds will go up to 100/200 after passing you, your ~1000 stack will be in good position to steal on level 5 before the blinds hit you again.

I know its hard to laydown hands like AT, but I'm sure you do it all the time on levels 1-3. You don't HAVE TO raise it on level 4. Risking a push might not be worth it, and raising to 300 can get very messy when people call you.

It is often better to pass on good level 4 hands, establish a tight image, and then push any 2 on level 5.

Obviously, it depends on opponents, position, etc. You should still be stealing on level 4, but only if you want to. Don't let the cards dictate your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was PhilVS in voltron87's "slumping" thread that is still active, but i dont want to hijack. I think this is a gem, but was too damn buried.

The idea that, if you already have >T1200, you are better off just assuring your stack remains at a reasonable level, enough that you have FE, and will still have FE even if you have to pay the blinds once in level 5. That winning some chips in level 4 is somewhat benificial, but losing some chips is very detrimental.

Can anyone add to this? Does anyone disagree? Discuss.

[pergesu]

I saw that too, and have been thinking about it a lot. Trying to implement it while playing, see how it works out. I noticed that a lot of time by level 5, my opponents were starting to call with all kinds of stuff. Not questionable calls like QJ, but outright awful calls with J3o. I've only tried Phil's strategy 5 or 6 times since reading it, but so far it's seemed to work well. Opponents are folding more to me in level 5+. I don't know if it's actually the case or just a placebo effect, but it sure looks that way. Also, I admit that the sample size is nothing from which to make conclusions. Still, I think it's a good idea, and I'd like to see what others have to say about it.

[viennagreen]

i made a lot of very good preflop calls with hands worse than J3o in level 5 today.

[Big Limpin']

Dammit mother f*ckers i said DISCUSS !!!

[DasLeben]

I've been trying to implement this strategy lately as well, and it's working quite well. I was finding that I was running low on FE in later rounds, since I'd been getting aggressive at 50/100, even if I didn't have to. If you suddenly come alive at 100/200, I've found that people tend to back off more and respect your pushes, at least for a little while.

Picking up a few extra blinds at the 100/200 level can really mean the difference between fighting for third, or raping for first.

[johnnybeef]

good strategy, id say pound for pound, i have seen more quality substance from PVS' posts than anyone here. Nicely put Phil!

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I had to oversimplify a strategy for levels 1-4 on PartyPoker, it would be: "get ready for level 5".

The huge jump from level 4 to 5 is really the most significant event in party SnGs. If you survive it, you are in great shape to cash.

Therefore, once I get to 1200-1600 chips, I'll be super-tight on level 4. I've already achieved my "goal" of being ready for level 5 and I don't feel the need to risk that for 150 chips.

Even with 900-1100 chips, you can play tight on level 4 if the timing of the blind change is right. If the blinds will go up to 100/200 after passing you, your ~1000 stack will be in good position to steal on level 5 before the blinds hit you again.

I know its hard to laydown hands like AT, but I'm sure you do it all the time on levels 1-3. You don't HAVE TO raise it on level 4. Risking a push might not be worth it, and raising to 300 can get very messy when people call you.

It is often better to pass on good level 4 hands, establish a tight image, and then push any 2 on level 5.

Obviously, it depends on opponents, position, etc. You should still be stealing on level 4, but only if you want to. Don't let the cards dictate your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was PhilVS in voltron87's "slumping" thread that is still active, but i dont want to hijack. I think this is a gem, but was too damn buried.

The idea that, if you already have >T1200, you are better off just assuring your stack remains at a reasonable level, enough that you have FE, and will still have FE even if you have to pay the blinds once in level 5. That winning some chips in level 4 is somewhat benificial, but losing some chips is very detrimental.

Can anyone add to this? Does anyone disagree? Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]


Note that he says he's "oversimplifying the strategy". That usually means it's a bad strategy to follow too closely. It's good to have some basic rules, but you really need to know what to do in exact situations to really do well, because obviously you are going to play some hands in level 4 when you don't "need" the chips. Also in level 4, the cards SHOULD be dictating your play in most situations.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
i made a lot of very good preflop calls with hands worse than J3o in level 5 today.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please post them.

[beeyjay]

i do agree with this. it might have been the same thread but recently i think apathy and imsolucky were going back and forth about essentialy the same thing. I was previously kind of in the if you have a slight edge push it here camp but after reconsidering, 150 chips is just so small for the risk often involved when there are lots of people still remaining

[Big Limpin']

for sure curtains, i agree that adding any more "rules" is not a good thing necessarily.

what i take from this is an alteration of my values. Realizing that my priotities in level 4 are significantly different when i have T1200 than when i have T800.

Dynamicism.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
pound for pound, i have seen more quality substance from PVS' posts than anyone here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto that.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
It's good to have some basic rules, but you really need to know what to do in exact situations to really do well

[/ QUOTE ]

You want to know how to play in an exact level 4 situation. Play like this:

NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:11949528 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, May 05, 21:59:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 11739 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 2: shaft48 ( $2295 )
Seat 3: The_Program ( $1710 )
Seat 4: kidneb2 ( $1775 )
Seat 5: philvansexton ( $615 )
Seat 8: SueBCatcher ( $1705 )
Seat 9: bocce ( $1345 )
Seat 10: setsofclubs ( $555 )
Trny:11949528 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to philvansexton [ 8h 6d ]
shaft48 folds.
The_Program folds.
kidneb2 folds.
philvansexton is all-In [615]
SueBCatcher calls [615].
bocce is all-In [1295]
setsofclubs folds.
>You have options at Table 14533 Table!.
SueBCatcher calls [730].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 5c, 6h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3d ]
bocce shows [ Ac, As ] a pair of aces.
philvansexton shows [ 8h, 6d ] two pairs, eights and sixes.
SueBCatcher shows [ Ah, Kd ] high card ace.
bocce wins 1460 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
philvansexton wins 1945 chips from the main pot with two pairs, eights and sixes.

[Voltron87]

I've done a lot thinking about these situations over the past few days, obviously my "slumping" gets into it. PVS' overgeneralization is basically correct. For me a big key is to know when you are a big stack pushing other people around and when you are a smaller stack pushing into other people. When you are a smaller stack everything changes. Most of my slump was due to playing a medish stack against bigger stacks at the wrong times. Just getting a little sloppy. Not quite choosing the stacks I was going after as well. I had way too many "pre/semi bubble" finishes. This is not exactly new to me, I learned these things a while ago, but I made mistakes while I was on tilt.

In summary:

1. I was not paying enough attention to the stack sizes I was attacking.

2. I was making moves while the blinds were not as bad as I thought.

3. I was acting like I needed to pick up blinds when I really didn't. These resulted in less SNGS where I ended at the bubble, which is where I am best.

4. Know the difference between putting pressure on yourself by looking at the blind size and thinking "oh man I don't have many BBs" and the difference between "i have him covered he will need a great hand to call here." This is the biggest to me. I was neglecting this difference and just thinking "must pick up BBs."

[Unparagoned]

What do you charge for lessons on how to hit two pair when All-In preflop as a huge dog...'cus man, I'm pretty sure I could pony up for that class... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BDarch]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you charge for lessons on how to hit two pair when All-In preflop as a huge dog...'cus man, I'm pretty sure I could pony up for that class... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to take those lessons too....you should open a school

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Note that he says he's "oversimplifying the strategy". That usually means it's a bad strategy to follow too closely. It's good to have some basic rules, but you really need to know what to do in exact situations to really do well, because obviously you are going to play some hands in level 4 when you don't "need" the chips. Also in level 4, the cards SHOULD be dictating your play in most situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

All true.

My post was directed at Voltron's problems. He knows how to play, so there's no reason for me to give him a list of starting hands.

I was just refocusing him on the big picture. He knows what he should be doing in different situations, but it sounded like he had lost his way temporarily.

During a bad streak, I end to overdo the aggressive to get back on track. There are legitimate reasons to slow down at times, but these easy to forget in the fog of a downswing.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you charge for lessons on how to hit two pair when All-In preflop as a huge dog...'cus man, I'm pretty sure I could pony up for that class... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to take those lessons too....you should open a school

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I've already posted all my SnG secrets.

I've moved on to 5/10 6max limit for tonight. We'll see if this is more profitable than SnGs based on a 1 night sample

If I had to oversimplify a strategy for 5/10 6max, it would be: "raise".

[viennagreen]

you're not serious right?

the point i was making was that J3o is not an awful call-an-all-in/push hand without context.

posting examples is silly since you should be able to come up with these scenarios yourself.

[Freudian]

I both agree and disagree. Yes, you don't have to pick up more chips to have FE. But there are also many opportunities where you can do so and it will only increase your FE later on. Passing them because you don't need the chips seems like it can come back and haunt you.

It's all about risk/reward. You don't have to risk your whole stack to gain chips in levels 3-4.

I do agree that is some cases it is better to treat level 4 more like level 3 instead of level 5. It is a bad habit to go into push or fold mode in level 4 in many cases, and using the basic "how to beat the 10+1" strategy doesn't make that clear enough.

[curtains]

One thing I try to avoid in the $55s and up, is raising to like 2.5-3x the blind in the 50-100 round when I have a medium stack and can't stand a reraise by any of the remaining opponents.

For instance KTo in the cutoff seat and 1300 chips, with all opponents having about 1000. If the blinds are 100-200 it's a clear allin, but I tend to fold in the 50-100 round in this scenario. However based on the hand value, folding would seem improper as the first player to act in a 4 handed battle. Maybe this is a decent example of what PS was talking about.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's good to have some basic rules, but you really need to know what to do in exact situations to really do well

[/ QUOTE ]

You want to know how to play in an exact level 4 situation. Play like this:

NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:11949528 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, May 05, 21:59:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 11739 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 2: shaft48 ( $2295 )
Seat 3: The_Program ( $1710 )
Seat 4: kidneb2 ( $1775 )
Seat 5: philvansexton ( $615 )
Seat 8: SueBCatcher ( $1705 )
Seat 9: bocce ( $1345 )
Seat 10: setsofclubs ( $555 )
Trny:11949528 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to philvansexton [ 8h 6d ]
shaft48 folds.
The_Program folds.
kidneb2 folds.
philvansexton is all-In [615]
SueBCatcher calls [615].
bocce is all-In [1295]
setsofclubs folds.
>You have options at Table 14533 Table!.
SueBCatcher calls [730].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 5c, 6h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3d ]
bocce shows [ Ac, As ] a pair of aces.
philvansexton shows [ 8h, 6d ] two pairs, eights and sixes.
SueBCatcher shows [ Ah, Kd ] high card ace.
bocce wins 1460 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
philvansexton wins 1945 chips from the main pot with two pairs, eights and sixes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Were you screwing around? Because from where I'm standing your all-in looks horrible.

[curtains]

The allin isnt terrible. Against normal calling ranges it's probably +EV. (Although I'd fold here quite often, but that's another story)

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
The allin isnt terrible. Against normal calling ranges it's probably +EV. (Although I'd fold here quite often, but that's another story)

[/ QUOTE ]

I gotta disagree, I think it's just plain terrible. Maybe there's a LOT more FE at the $55s than I realized, as compared to the $22s/$33s. At the $22s/$33s, I don't even think it's a good push from the button.

[curtains]

It's definitely not plain terrible. Don't make me run it man!!! I'm too lazy to put in the numbers. Note that I usually don't make this play anyway.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

It's definitely not plain terrible. Don't make me run it man!!! I'm too lazy to put in the numbers. Note that I usually don't make this play anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll run them myself. I'm gonna be real surprised if it turns out not to be terrible.

[curtains]

Ok I freaking ran it. Against a range like (22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs). It's actually slightly +EV to push here. Note that this range is actually quite loose, as most people will fold quite a few of the above hands from the blinds, especially in the 55s. Against this range its practically breakeven, with a .1% advantage towards pushing...however if you tighten it up just a bit, it becomes more seriously +EV.

This range (44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+), makes it +.6% EV, which is pretty signifigant. One thing that eastbay's program has helped me with, is that I seem to intuitively know whether a push will be EV or not without even having to enter it anymore.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's definitely not plain terrible. Don't make me run it man!!! I'm too lazy to put in the numbers. Note that I usually don't make this play anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll run them myself. I'm gonna be real surprised if it turns out not to be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're gonna be surprised.

Yugoslav

[AA suited]

phil

isnt it too risky to steal as CO when there are 7 players left? (you have plenty of time to catch cards before blinds come back to you, no?)

if so, then what's the reasoning for pushing with 86o as CO?

[curtains]

His reasoning is that the blinds will fold a large % of the time, and those rare times that they don't he will get lucky and suck out on both of them sometimes, with all of this adding up to a +EV play for him, in his opinion.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok I freaking ran it. Against a range like (22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs). It's actually slightly +EV to push here. Note that this range is actually quite loose, as most people will fold quite a few of the above hands from the blinds, especially in the 55s. Against this range its practically breakeven, with a .1% advantage towards pushing...however if you tighten it up just a bit, it becomes more seriously +EV.

This range (44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+), makes it +.6% EV, which is pretty signifigant. One thing that eastbay's program has helped me with, is that I seem to intuitively know whether a push will be EV or not without even having to enter it anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

curtains,

i get the opposite.

vs a call range of (22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs), 86o is -EV.

vs a tighter call range of (44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+), it is slightly +EV by .2%.

[curtains]

Dont know what to say....I keep getting the same results. You have it set for 50+ buyins?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok I freaking ran it. Against a range like (22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs). It's actually slightly +EV to push here. Note that this range is actually quite loose, as most people will fold quite a few of the above hands from the blinds, especially in the 55s. Against this range its practically breakeven, with a .1% advantage towards pushing...however if you tighten it up just a bit, it becomes more seriously +EV.

This range (44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+), makes it +.6% EV, which is pretty signifigant. One thing that eastbay's program has helped me with, is that I seem to intuitively know whether a push will be EV or not without even having to enter it anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I get +44.3 CEV for your tighter range. I haven't run the looser range but it looks like it would be -CEV. I also suspect that when I run the ICM calcs I may get a negative result even for the tighter range.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ok I freaking ran it. Against a range like (22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs). It's actually slightly +EV to push here. Note that this range is actually quite loose, as most people will fold quite a few of the above hands from the blinds, especially in the 55s. Against this range its practically breakeven, with a .1% advantage towards pushing...however if you tighten it up just a bit, it becomes more seriously +EV.

This range (44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+), makes it +.6% EV, which is pretty signifigant. One thing that eastbay's program has helped me with, is that I seem to intuitively know whether a push will be EV or not without even having to enter it anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I get +44.3 CEV for your tighter range. I haven't run the looser range but it looks like it would be -CEV. I also suspect that when I run the ICM calcs I may get a negative result even for the tighter range.

[/ QUOTE ]

My ICM cals have given me +0.27%. I have made the most generous assumptions along the way (rounded everything up, assumed it was slightly more likely that button would call than that SB or BB would). Since it's actually more likely, probably, that one of the blinds will call than that the Button will, it seems to me that this play is ICM equity-neutral given the "tighter" range. Considering that each successful blind steal uses up some of your FE, and that you are likely to have several much better spots, I still think folding is clearly the right play. But I do retract my initial "horrible push" reaction. And yes, I am surprised by the results.

I still think it would be a horrible push in the $22s/$33s, where the calling range will be wider.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]

My ICM cals have given me +0.27%. I have made the most generous assumptions along the way (rounded everything up, assumed it was slightly more likely that button would call than that SB or BB would). Since it's actually more likely, probably, that one of the blinds will call than that the Button will, it seems to me that this play is ICM equity-neutral given the "tighter" range. Considering that each successful blind steal uses up some of your FE, and that you are likely to have several much better spots, I still think folding is clearly the right play. But I do retract my initial "horrible push" reaction. And yes, I am surprised by the results.

I still think it would be a horrible push in the $22s/$33s, where the calling range will be wider.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't realize that my 86 hand would generate any discussion. I only posted it because it happened as I was reading this thread about my strategy for level 4.

You have to remember that I only have 605 chips. The point of my post to Voltron was "be ready for level 5". 605 is not getting it done.

I need to steal before the blinds hit me again in 4 hands. This seems like a good enough spot as any. I don't always push here with 86o, but I push a lot.

Remember that ICM doesn't account for the blinds. It doesn't realize that the BB is 16% of my stack, and soon to be 33%. I need to make something happen, and I need to do it soon. If the ICM is neutral, I'm still all over it because I think it would be +$EV if the ICM understood my situation better.

One thing that is not obvious in my post is that the blinds go up to 100/200 on the next hand. This changes "push a lot" to "push even if dealt a Skip and a Draw Four".

I mentioned this in this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2322823&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) about pushing T2o UTG. I said:

[ QUOTE ]
It should go without saying that I would've pushed with any 2 on any of the previous 3 hands if it were folded to me in order to avoid this predicament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, I wasn't kidding.

Here is a post from strassa (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2085711&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) on a simliar topic. I feel like I quote him in every post, but it's only fair since I learned all my maniac-ness from him.

[TheUsher]

Ssshhh Phil don't let all the secrets out of the bag now. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Edit: I bet knowledge of this subject alone would make many here increase their ROI by a sizable amount.

[zaphod]

Thanks for the links!

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

My ICM cals have given me +0.27%. I have made the most generous assumptions along the way (rounded everything up, assumed it was slightly more likely that button would call than that SB or BB would). Since it's actually more likely, probably, that one of the blinds will call than that the Button will, it seems to me that this play is ICM equity-neutral given the "tighter" range. Considering that each successful blind steal uses up some of your FE, and that you are likely to have several much better spots, I still think folding is clearly the right play. But I do retract my initial "horrible push" reaction. And yes, I am surprised by the results.

I still think it would be a horrible push in the $22s/$33s, where the calling range will be wider.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't realize that my 86 hand would generate any discussion. I only posted it because it happened as I was reading this thread about my strategy for level 4.

You have to remember that I only have 605 chips. The point of my post to Voltron was "be ready for level 5". 605 is not getting it done.

I need to steal before the blinds hit me again in 4 hands. This seems like a good enough spot as any. I don't always push here with 86o, but I push a lot.

Remember that ICM doesn't account for the blinds. It doesn't realize that the BB is 16% of my stack, and soon to be 33%. I need to make something happen, and I need to do it soon. If the ICM is neutral, I'm still all over it because I think it would be +$EV if the ICM understood my situation better.

One thing that is not obvious in my post is that the blinds go up to 100/200 on the next hand. This changes "push a lot" to "push even if dealt a Skip and a Draw Four".

I mentioned this in this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2322823&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) about pushing T2o UTG. I said:

[ QUOTE ]
It should go without saying that I would've pushed with any 2 on any of the previous 3 hands if it were folded to me in order to avoid this predicament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, I wasn't kidding.

Here is a post from strassa (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2085711&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) on a simliar topic. I feel like I quote him in every post, but it's only fair since I learned all my maniac-ness from him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'm basically convinced, especially as far as the $55s go. The fact that the blinds are going up next hand definitely helps me like the push.

I dunno about the T2o hand in your link. Maybe you're right on that one too, but I don't know if I can handle that much learning in one day. As for the AJs...I've always agreed it's a clear push. I actually made a bunch of posts in that thread, including this one, which makes an argument that still seems reasonable to me. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2090956&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)