how to piss off a HOF pitcher [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Skipbidder

05-05-2005, 12:57 AM

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and you almost have to wonder just how much bad karma he's built up over the years...

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What is the value of the bad karma you build up by throwing multiple times at the head of HOF catchers? How about when you repeatedly lie about it afterwards? How about when you throw a bat fragment at him? (And of course, lie about it afterwards.)

50 more NDs? 100? Pipe wrench to the knees?

If he never wins another game, it will be fine with me.

This will not happen of course, since he has to be on everyone's short list of best current starting pitcher.

tdarko

05-05-2005, 01:03 AM

piazza is a pussy. they HAVE to say it was unintentional--its a part of the game, grow up.

haters make me laugh.

Dead

05-05-2005, 01:23 AM

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It won't be as easy for him pitching to AL lineups.

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haha thats funny.

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Don't be naive.

You're a pitcher.

Would you rather face the NL Central teams or the AL East teams?

Add in the DH factor as well, and Clemens has gotten a break pitching for the Astros.

Dead

05-05-2005, 01:24 AM

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piazza is a pussy. they HAVE to say it was unintentional--its a part of the game, grow up.

haters make me laugh.

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No, Clemens was totally out of line against Piazza.

Piazza is a class act, and Clemens is a gigantic tool. I appreciate what he did for my team, but that's it.

tdarko

05-05-2005, 01:28 AM

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Would you rather face the NL Central teams or the AL East teams?

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yes you are correct, i would much rather face an NL Central team. with that said i don't think he will have much of a problem running through the devil ray and blue jay lineups (or any other AL team as well).

Soul Daddy

05-05-2005, 01:37 AM

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It won't be as easy for him pitching to AL lineups.

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Yeah, he'd have to show me some long term success in the AL before I believe.

pryor15

05-05-2005, 01:41 AM

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they HAVE to say it was unintentional--its a part of the game, grow up.

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no question there, but if i remember the story correctly, when he was with boston he went on the dl for a bit and sox were getting plunked left and right, but no one would stand up for them and retaliate. clemens held a press conf. and said, basically, "i'm taking names", then proceeded to hit something like 5 guys his first game back.

the story may be a bit off, since i'm remembering it second-hand, but i don't for a minute doubt it happened.

James282

05-05-2005, 01:47 AM

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piazza is a pussy. they HAVE to say it was unintentional--its a part of the game, grow up.

haters make me laugh.

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No, Clemens was totally out of line against Piazza.

Piazza is a class act, and Clemens is a gigantic tool. I appreciate what he did for my team, but that's it.

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Dead, I have to admit that you are actually the voice of reason in this thread with regards to Clemens vs. Piazza as well as Clemens' projected performance in the AL East vs. the NL Central.
-James

IggyWH

05-05-2005, 01:48 AM

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HOF catchers?

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I hate when I hear people refer to Piazza as a HOF catcher. Piazza's been a great consistant hitter... but he's just that, a hitter. He was an average catcher at best. I can't find the #'s for runners thrown out but I always remember him having a horrible %.

bugstud

05-05-2005, 01:49 AM

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piazza is a pussy. they HAVE to say it was unintentional--its a part of the game, grow up.

haters make me laugh.

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No, Clemens was totally out of line against Piazza.

Piazza is a class act, and Clemens is a gigantic tool. I appreciate what he did for my team, but that's it.

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Dead, I have to admit that you are actually the voice of reason in this thread with regards to Clemens vs. Piazza as well as Clemens' projected performance in the AL East vs. the NL Central.
-James

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my head just exploded

pryor15

05-05-2005, 01:52 AM

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I can't find the #'s for runners thrown out but I always remember him having a horrible %.

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he threw a runner out? i must have missed that.

it wasn't cecil fielder, was it?

Skipbidder

05-05-2005, 01:58 AM

Fair enough.
I was just doing it for symmetry with the OP's post.
As far as whether or not MP is really HOF material (or even close), I have no horse in the race.

xorbie

05-05-2005, 02:01 AM

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It won't be as easy for him pitching to AL lineups.

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Yeah, he'd have to show me some long term success in the AL before I believe.

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NH.

IggyWH

05-05-2005, 02:07 AM

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Fair enough.
I was just doing it for symmetry with the OP's post.
As far as whether or not MP is really HOF material (or even close), I have no horse in the race.

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baseball-reference.com has some cool ratings that they use to compare active players to players in the HOF. According to their number in HOF Monitor, 100 is good, 130 is a lock. Piazza currently has a rating of 167.

I still question in todays age if his offensive numbers will be good enough, but for the simple fact that he played catcher makes him a lock for the HOF, although I can't agree.

James282

05-05-2005, 03:13 AM

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Fair enough.
I was just doing it for symmetry with the OP's post.
As far as whether or not MP is really HOF material (or even close), I have no horse in the race.

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baseball-reference.com has some cool ratings that they use to compare active players to players in the HOF. According to their number in HOF Monitor, 100 is good, 130 is a lock. Piazza currently has a rating of 167.

I still question in todays age if his offensive numbers will be good enough, but for the simple fact that he played catcher makes him a lock for the HOF, although I can't agree.

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Saying that Piazza is anything but a lock is a little ridiculous IMO. The guy dominated in VORP(value over a replacement player) for basically his entire career with regards to output from his position.

Yeah Piazza is tough to watch behind the plate. But f u guys! He threw out 2 players in the same game this week /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
-James

IggyWH

05-05-2005, 03:48 AM

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Saying that Piazza is anything but a lock is a little ridiculous IMO. The guy dominated in VORP(value over a replacement player) for basically his entire career with regards to output from his position.

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Him being a catcher is what is getting him into the Hall... there's really no debating that he won't make the Hall and it's because of the position he plays.

If he was a career 1st baseman, a 315 lifetime BA and will probably end with around 450 HR's and 2500 hits, he would not be a lock for the HOF although would probably eventually get in. Who knows in the steriods era though what will happen when people actually get the ballots.

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Yeah Piazza is tough to watch behind the plate. But f u guys! He threw out 2 players in the same game this week /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
-James

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Piazza might be able to throw out Mo Vaughn in practice...

Aceshigh7

05-05-2005, 04:35 AM

Well, to be fair to Lidge, Qualls (who I think has a bright future) had loaded the bases prior to Lidge coming in.

Yea, the Stros haven't supported Clemens at all this year but that will turn around. Berkman is coming back this week and this team will start clicking by June. We'll be back in the playoffs and if we don't have the injuries we had last year we'll go to the world series this time.

Aceshigh7

05-05-2005, 04:36 AM

Also, I read those trade rumors as well and Gammons is full of it. Clemens is going nowhere. He came to Houston to pitch for a reason.

Jack of Arcades

05-05-2005, 04:48 AM

The impact of the stolen base in a high-run scoring environment is vastly overrated.

In order for a stolen base to be a "+EV play" so to speak, since we are talking about a gamble, it has to succeed roughly 73% of the time. Mike Piazza has thrown out 24.4% of runners, so running on Mike has more or less a positive expectation. I calculate that the stolen bases given up by Mike have added up to... 72 runs. A whopping 72. We're talking like 11 full seasons here, that's not even 7 runs a season.

And that's not taking into account other forms of catcher defense. Catcher is easily the hardest position to measure defensively since so much of it is game calling. I've heard nothing bad about Mike's calling - which is more than I can say about Pudge Rodriguez... Texas pitchers complained about the numerous fastballs called by Pudge in order to inflate his CS%. The same's been said of Yogi Berra.

In any other era, Mike Piazza would not have been a catcher. He could not have survived there due to his lack of arm. That doesn't change the fact that he's been one of the most valuable catchers of all time and easily the best hitting catcher.

Him playing catcher is easily a net positive for his team. In fact, anyone who's a decent hitter that wouldn't embarass himself behind the plate should be a catcher, since catchers hit so anemically.

JaBlue

05-05-2005, 04:58 AM

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and you almost have to wonder just how much bad karma he's built up over the years...

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What is the value of the bad karma you build up by throwing multiple times at the head of HOF catchers? How about when you repeatedly lie about it afterwards? How about when you throw a bat fragment at him? (And of course, lie about it afterwards.)

50 more NDs? 100? Pipe wrench to the knees?

If he never wins another game, it will be fine with me.

This will not happen of course, since he has to be on everyone's short list of best current starting pitcher.

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intimidation is what makes clemens so good. It's part of the game. get over it.

i wanna be me

05-05-2005, 05:07 AM

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with that said i don't think he will have much of a problem running through the devil ray and blue jay lineups

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

orioles > blue jays > red sox > yankees > devil rays

Bulldog

05-05-2005, 10:25 AM

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Let's see how long before Gammons is proven right and he gets shipped to NY.

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I WANT CLEMENS!!! BACK WHERE HE SHOULD BE

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Toronto?

Boston?

Retired?

DougOzzzz

05-05-2005, 10:45 AM

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In order for a stolen base to be a "+EV play" so to speak, since we are talking about a gamble, it has to succeed roughly 73% of the time. Mike Piazza has thrown out 24.4% of runners, so running on Mike has more or less a positive expectation. I calculate that the stolen bases given up by Mike have added up to... 72 runs. A whopping 72. We're talking like 11 full seasons here, that's not even 7 runs a season.

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Uhhh, I'm not sure how you got 72 runs. By your own numbers, Piazza has only allowed 23 EXTRA stolen bases over the break even point of 73%. The difference between a runner on 2nd and X outs and a runner on 1st and X-1 outs is around 0.5(it varies depending on the # of outs and whether or not a runner is also on 3rd). So using that method his arm has only cost 12 or so runs over his entire career.

Edit: Maybe you're comparing him to the average catcher, who throws out more than 27% of runners.

DougOzzzz

05-05-2005, 11:20 AM

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In order for a stolen base to be a "+EV play" so to speak, since we are talking about a gamble, it has to succeed roughly 73% of the time. Mike Piazza has thrown out 24.4% of runners, so running on Mike has more or less a positive expectation. I calculate that the stolen bases given up by Mike have added up to... 72 runs. A whopping 72. We're talking like 11 full seasons here, that's not even 7 runs a season.

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Uhhh, I'm not sure how you got 72 runs. By your own numbers, Piazza has only allowed 23 EXTRA stolen bases over the break even point of 73%. The difference between a runner on 2nd and X outs and a runner on 1st and X-1 outs is around 0.5(it varies depending on the # of outs and whether or not a runner is also on 3rd). So using that method his arm has only cost 12 or so runs over his entire career.

Edit: Maybe you're comparing him to the average catcher, who throws out more than 27% of runners.

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By the way, he's probably cost relatively more WINS than runs with his arm. By relatively, I mean that the extra runs allowed*10 < extra wins allowed.

That's because virtually all the value in the stolen base is in increasing the probability of AT LEAST 1 run scoring. Thus, a smart player would never steal unless the game was close and late. So those 24 extra stolen bases allowed, which increased the chances of at least 1 run scoring by up to 45% (difference in probabilities of 1 or more run scoring with runner on 2nd, no outs and bases empty, 1 out), could have cost several wins.

Your numbers in fact may be right if you calculate the wins cost and then convert them to runs.

Dead

05-05-2005, 11:29 AM

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It won't be as easy for him pitching to AL lineups.

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Yeah, he'd have to show me some long term success in the AL before I believe.

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The last time Clemens pitched in the AL was 2003. And it wasn't exactly a fantastic year for him. Perhaps you remember his ALCS game 7?

The AL East is unquestionably tougher this year than in 2003.

And Clemens is older. There are no easy DH outs in the AL, where at least 80% of the 9 batters in the NL are easy outs.

RogerZBT

05-05-2005, 11:41 AM

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There are no easy DH outs in the AL, where at least 80% of the 9 batters in the NL are easy outs.

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80%? 7 out of 9 hitters in the NL are easy outs? That's a typo I assume.

Soul Daddy

05-05-2005, 11:49 AM

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The last time Clemens pitched in the AL was 2003. And it wasn't exactly a fantastic year for him. Perhaps you remember his ALCS game 7?

The AL East is unquestionably tougher this year than in 2003.

And Clemens is older. There are no easy DH outs in the AL, where at least 80% of the 9 batters in the NL are easy outs.

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Clemens made his career pitching in the AL East. It has been a pretty solid career, so I'm fairly certain he could adjust. Yes, the DH makes things a bit messier, but there are some nice hitter's parks in the NL Central that he would avoid. Not that this has affected him much in the past year +.

I have no idea what one miserable performance in a playoff game has to do with this. His '03, while maybe not Cy Young worthy, was not so bad. He posted his best K/BB ratio in 6 years and best WHIP in 5.

Skipbidder

05-05-2005, 11:51 AM

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There are no easy DH outs in the AL, where at least 80% of the 9 batters in the NL are easy outs.

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80%? 7 out of 9 hitters in the NL are easy outs? That's a typo I assume.

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Nope, it's a mis-read-o
He is claiming that 80% of the number nine hitters in the NL are easy outs. Just a normal argument about how the DH affects the game.

tdarko

05-05-2005, 11:52 AM

orioles and red sox are the best lineups in that division.

RogerZBT

05-05-2005, 11:54 AM

Ahhh. MUCH better.

tdarko

05-05-2005, 12:01 PM

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Thus, a smart player would never steal unless the game was close and late

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this is wrong in many ways.

the bunt is used more in this situation. the majority of the time the steal is used based upon how many outs there are (need to get a runner in scoring position with 2 outs so he scores on a single) and where you are in the lineup (getting a runner in scoring position for the top of the lineup/if thrown out you still have the top of the lineup due the next inning).