Please help - first time playing NL ring, how's my line?

[The Student]

Hi -

I was playing some NL in Vegas this weekend and this hand is from a $1/$2 table at the Monte Carlo hotel with a buy-in of $100 - $200. This hand was played at around 6 in the morning, but I had recently sat down at the table, so minimal reads. But from what I could tell, there was a lot of limping with small PPs and marginal paint cards (like K/10 off). The table wasn't passive after the flop, though, and we had seen some big pots. I'm not sure of stack sizes here, but I'd say that all players in the hand have between $200 and $300.

I'm in the SB with Jd/Kc, and I complete after 2 MP players limp in. The BB checks.

Flop: Ah/Ac/10d (pot = $8)
I check it, and it gets checked around behind me.

Turn: Qd (pot = $8)
Okay, so I make my nut straight, but there's still the possibility that someone is beating me. I'm not worried about A/Q, because I think it would have been raised PF, but it's possible that there is A/10 out there. Besides that, there is now a flush draw on the board too.

In this situation, I figured I was either way ahead (maybe someone was sitting on an ace and wanted to trap by checking the flop) or way behind (A/10 trapping), so I checked the turn too.

Does anyone bet this here? If so, how much and what do you do facing a re-raise?

Anyways, I check and the BB bets out $25. This is an overbet for a pot of $8, but similar hands with a few limpers were being overbet on the flop and turn (most bets in a pot of limpers were around $15 or $20, though, so $25 is still high). I was surprised to see both MP players call the $25, and now I figured that I should just call the $25 and see what happens on the river. I didn't want to check-raise here because I didn't have any reads on the BB and wasn't sure if he was betting for value or what. I also didn't know what to make of the 2 callers. One of them could have an ace, but I couldn't put both of them on a flush draw, so I just called.

River: 7c (pot = $108)
So the flush draw is a bust, and the only thing I'm worried about here is the the boat. What's my line here?

This weekend was my first time playing NL ring games (I usually play STTs), so any help would be appreciated.

thanks,

ts-

[swolfe]

i would have taken a shot on the turn and seen what kind of action there was. no one has shown any interest in the pot at that point. this would make the river so much easier to play.

i'd probably check the river and see what happens. if BB bets and the two MP players are pushing in, i'm probably mucking (but i'd hate it). if there's just a bet and callers to me, i'd call a pot sized bet.

my initial inclination was to make a blocking bet of $75 on the river, but it's likely that someone would raise it with just trip aces and i'd hate to fold it. you really want to see showdown, but at this point, i don't think you want to have your whole stack in the middle.

your passive play on the turn puts you in a tough spot on the river.

[xcrack999]

I really don't like that turn check. I would bet the pot here because you'll get plenty of action from people playing ace rags, and you can also charge any flush draw. In my opinion, you were too passive. I'm not saying that you should be blindly pushing your stack in, but at the same time, you should not be worrying that much about someone flopping a boat when you have the nut straight that you decide to check. You said so yourself that the only realistic hand that can beat you here is ace-ten. That's one hand! I would be looking for a chance to stack someone here. If they flopped a boat, then they flopped a boat.

[boondockst]

I hope you didn't give A7o a cheap river...Doesn't sound like it by the sound of your post though

[TheWorstPlayer]

If there is one ace out, that guy has 10 outs to beat you on the river. If there are two aces out, they have a combined 12 outs to beat you on the river. This is not a time to check. I would bet $10-$15 on the pot if that is a normal sized bet in this game. If you get raised, most likely flat call, depending on the action perhaps. Then I probably blocking bet the river expecting to get a call from an ace and unlikely to get raised by someone without a boat. I definitely think that turn check is very very bad. Even if someone just has a hand like QJ they have 4 outs to beat you and 3 more to chop. You really have to be betting here. You will be very upset if it checks around and the flush hits the river or another ace or another queen or ten or a king or jack. That is a LOT of cards to not want to see hit the river.

[The Student]

[ QUOTE ]
If there is one ace out, that guy has 10 outs to beat you on the river. If there are two aces out, they have a combined 12 outs to beat you on the river. This is not a time to check. I would bet $10-$15 on the pot if that is a normal sized bet in this game. If you get raised, most likely flat call, depending on the action perhaps. Then I probably blocking bet the river expecting to get a call from an ace and unlikely to get raised by someone without a boat. I definitely think that turn check is very very bad. Even if someone just has a hand like QJ they have 4 outs to beat you and 3 more to chop. You really have to be betting here. You will be very upset if it checks around and the flush hits the river or another ace or another queen or ten or a king or jack. That is a LOT of cards to not want to see hit the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I realized on the river that I was giving any ace and the flush draws an easy shot to steal this pot from me just because I was afraid of a boat that may or may not be out there. Very weak play.

Okay, so here's what happened on the river:
I checked it (weak again, I know /images/graemlins/blush.gif), thinking that I would just try to show it down for cheap (very scared thinking, I know). The BB who had bet $25 on the turn now bet $50 into a pot of $108. Both MP players called.

It's up to me, I'm facing a $50 call for a pot of $258 to end the hand. Do I call it or raise it here? With two calls and no flushes, how is there a bet and two callers here? If there are two hands of trip aces, what can the third hand be? Could the BB be pushing tens over aces here and getting the other two to call with the other aces?

very, very confused here... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Call or raise? FYI - I have about $175 left after the turn and the bet is $50 to me for a pot of $258.

thanks again,

ts-

[DavidC]

Your position is good. You're the perfect person to have checked looking to sandbag.

Because of that, your bet looks a little stronger than otherwise, and I wouldn't expect to get raised except by a really solid hand.

That being said, I'd bet the pot (but I'd bet $10, not $8), and see what happened.

I haven't got a bloody clue how to play the river... I'd probably check-call.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Actually, I thought that checking would be the best play on the river, given the way that you got there. That way you can see how the action goes before you have to decide on your move. For instance, if only the first bettor bet again, I might check/raise all-in and hope to get a crying call from an ace. I think you are definitely ahead most of the time you are called here as it seems unlike that he has the boat. He would have raised with AQ most likely, AT would probably bet out to try to get action rather than checking which will seem very suspicious when he comes alive later in the hand (although these players may not think like that?) In any case, given that action as it is in your hand, I think you should probably just call. As you say, there could be two aces out and maybe another straight or something, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see AT either for the initial bettor (which is why there is no raise) or even AT or TT for a caller who is afraid of a higher boat?

You obviously can't fold, but I don't think it would be too wrong to either call or push here. If you push, you could very easily get called by a hand that you beat, but with that many people in the pot, perhaps it is not worth the risk since there is a pretty good chance someone has a boat here somehow (even though the action doesn't really indicate that, I am constantly surprised by how passively some people play). Hope it worked out for you.

For the record, I probably shove. But I'm a maniac.

[sawseech]

you're clueless on river because you incorrectly chk/called the turn

bet the turn

[swolfe]

i'd push. if either of the MP players had a boat they'd have raised...

[The Student]

[ QUOTE ]

You obviously can't fold, but I don't think it would be too wrong to either call or push here. If you push, you could very easily get called by a hand that you beat, but with that many people in the pot, perhaps it is not worth the risk since there is a pretty good chance someone has a boat here somehow (even though the action doesn't really indicate that, I am constantly surprised by how passively some people play). Hope it worked out for you.

For the record, I probably shove. But I'm a maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the responses I've received are the slap in the face that I needed, so thank you all. I definitely played this hand like one of the passive suckers that you mention, just asking for my opponents to hit the draws (flush/boat) that they needed to beat me. I really should have bet out the turn, but I got spooked as this was my first NL ring game. I was playing like I did when I first started playing limit online a few years ago, assuming that I was up against the nutz every time someone bet into me.

For the record, I wimped out on the river and just called, and was shown a suited Q/8 from the BB (who bet the turn and river with second pair), an A/4s from MP1 (who checked his trip aces on the flop and then just called it all the way down - the one player who was even more passive than me), and MP2 mucked.

Probably missed some $ by not pushing on the river, but bigger problem was not betting the turn. Hopefully I'll not make this mistake next time.

Thanks for the advice,

ts-