KK Sanity Check

[durron597]

Anyone play this differently?


No-limit Texas Hold'em $5+$.50 (real money), hand #
Single Table Tournament, 4 May 2005

Seat 1: UTG+1 ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 2: MP1 ($2,395 in chips)
Seat 3: MP2 ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 4: MP3 ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 5: CO-1 ($2,085 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero [K/images/graemlins/heart.gif,K/images/graemlins/club.gif] ($1,490 in chips)
Seat 7: Button ($1,460 in chips)
Seat 8: SB ($1,260 in chips)
Seat 9: BB ($770 in chips)
Seat 10: UTG ($1,040 in chips)


ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($10), BB posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
UTG calls $20, UTG+1 bets $50, MP1 calls $50, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $50, CO-1 folds, Hero bets $275, Button folds, SB calls $265, BB folds, UTG calls $255, UTG+1 calls $225, MP1 folds, MP3 folds.

FLOP [board cards A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif,5/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
SB checks, UTG bets $100, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds,

[willie]

yeah that's about right.

i MIGHT make a play if i didn't have to worry about the SB still to act.

[Phoenix1010]

Perfect. I'd raise to 400 (or more) preflop, but otherwise this is just fine.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Perfect. I'd raise to 400 (or more) preflop, but otherwise this is just fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise to 400 when the pot is only 200? Remember the blinds are only 10/20.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perfect. I'd raise to 400 (or more) preflop, but otherwise this is just fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise to 400 when the pot is only 200? Remember the blinds are only 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

Up against extra loose opponents with deep stacks, it's best to raise an amount that will get their attention.

Furthermore, once the raise is made and called, you no longer think of the size of your reraise in terms of the blinds, you think about it in terms of the raise. So you make your standard reraise plus two times the original raise for each caller.

So (3 x 50) + 2(50) + 2(50) = 350

Add a little bit for the looseness of your opponents and 400 seems about right.

[mcpherzen]

Wait just a minute...you folded a $1220 pot to a $100 bet on the flop when the Ace hit???

With 3 opponents seeing that flop, I don't really like your position when the Ace comes, but I'm certainly not giving up $1220 there for a measly $100...I think you have to call. Here's 3 very viable possibilities for the turn:

(A) Your opponent might have had nothing (like 8-8) and he was just throwing out a probe bet to see where he was in the hand. Not real likely, I suppose, but would it happen at least one time in 13 (your pot-odds on the flop)? Absolutely. He might totally shut down on the turn and check to you. You check behind getting a free river and looking for a cheap showdown.

(B) Your opponent likely has a weak Ace here, and your pre-flop raise and flop smooth-call might get him to think it's no good (i.e., you have AK). He might totally shut down on the turn and check to you. You check behind getting a free river and looking for a cheap showdown.

(C) The turn brings a miracle K. You now take his entire stack because he isn't folding his top pair.

Don't get me wrong, you're probably going to lose this hand. But as your opponent is sending you signals that he isn't going to charge you very much to see his hand, and since you beat almost all of the non-Ace hands, you need to call there. Over lots and lots of trials in a similar situation, you'll finish way ahead by calling here.

--Z

[Phoenix1010]

Actually, mcpherzen is correct of course. You should at least take one off and see what happens on the turn. I think a situation really really similar to this one is in Harrington's book, and he suggests calling.

[snap]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait just a minute...you folded a $1220 pot to a $100 bet on the flop when the Ace hit???

With 3 opponents seeing that flop, I don't really like your position when the Ace comes, but I'm certainly not giving up $1220 there for a measly $100...I think you have to call. Here's 3 very viable possibilities for the turn:

(A) Your opponent might have had nothing (like 8-8) and he was just throwing out a probe bet to see where he was in the hand. Not real likely, I suppose, but would it happen at least one time in 13 (your pot-odds on the flop)? Absolutely. He might totally shut down on the turn and check to you. You check behind getting a free river and looking for a cheap showdown.

(B) Your opponent likely has a weak Ace here, and your pre-flop raise and flop smooth-call might get him to think it's no good (i.e., you have AK). He might totally shut down on the turn and check to you. You check behind getting a free river and looking for a cheap showdown.

(C) The turn brings a miracle K. You now take his entire stack because he isn't folding his top pair.

Don't get me wrong, you're probably going to lose this hand. But as your opponent is sending you signals that he isn't going to charge you very much to see his hand, and since you beat almost all of the non-Ace hands, you need to call there. Over lots and lots of trials in a similar situation, you'll finish way ahead by calling here.

--Z

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree. B) mentions a weak ace (most people will play A-X in low limits), unless you improve or your smooth call doesn't slow the betting, this is most likely the case (meaning you're behind). But you can't laydown such a big pot to such a small raise.

Also, with such a small bet, you can try to play back at your opponent. If he's just testing where you're at with a low pocket pair or something, show stength. It may not work but he's sending you some kind of message w/ a small raise. Try and put him on a decision and you'll have a better idea of where you stand in the hand.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, with such a small bet, you can try to play back at your opponent. If he's just testing where you're at with a low pocket pair or something, show stength. It may not work but he's sending you some kind of message w/ a small raise. Try and put him on a decision and you'll have a better idea of where you stand in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking of raising to 400 on the flop and buying a cheap showdown. In a 5+.50 though, he's very unlikely to fold any ace, and there are no real draws out there. So you're not likely to make him fold a better hand, and if you have the best hand now you're likely to have the best hand on the river as well, so there's no big need to protect your hand.

So raising to 400 is only useful for trying to buy a cheap showdown from a weak ace. You should only consider this if you'd be willing to call 300 more in the hand to reach a showdown. I would not. I would hope that my call slows him down and he checks it down or bets tiny on the river. If he showed any more strength, I would definitely be folding.

Since your opponent is likely to have you beat here, and you likely have very low fold equity, playing back at him is bleeding chips in the long run.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait just a minute...you folded a $1220 pot to a $100 bet on the flop when the Ace hit???

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I folded was two fold.

1) I figured that with three callers of my raise *someone* had to have an ace, and hitting my king is 22:1, which I don't have odds to draw to; unless you count implied odds - but I'd have to take nearly his entire stack every time the ace hits.

2) Since the SB is still in the hand, I figured that there was a decent chance he was planning to check raise, throwing my 100 out the window.

Yes, you are correct that the bet was very tiny. However, I didn't feel I could justify calling that with only a two-outer when I wasn't closing the action.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Since your opponent is likely to have you beat here, and you likely have very low fold equity, playing back at him is bleeding chips in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Except I took it one step further and used the same logic to turn your call into a fold.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wait just a minute...you folded a $1220 pot to a $100 bet on the flop when the Ace hit???

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I folded was two fold.

1) I figured that with three callers of my raise *someone* had to have an ace, and hitting my king is 22:1, which I don't have odds to draw to; unless you count implied odds - but I'd have to take nearly his entire stack every time the ace hits.

2) Since the SB is still in the hand, I figured that there was a decent chance he was planning to check raise, throwing my 100 out the window.

Yes, you are correct that the bet was very tiny. However, I didn't feel I could justify calling that with only a two-outer when I wasn't closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's likely that you have pretty good implied odds for when you hit your set, so that slightly offsets the fact that you don't have sufficient immediate odds. Furthermore, there's a decent chance that your opponent will shut down after his flop probe bet and check to you on the turn, in which case you would have more than enough pot odds to make the call. Add this to the fact that your opponent will be bluffing here a small percentage of the time, and you have a compelling case for calling the flop bet.

On the other hand, you're not closing the action, and there is a chance that the SB is planning on check raising. That possibility (like the possibility of the bettor being on a bluff, and the chance that the bettor will check the turn) is hard to quantify.

All in all, I'd say it's very close, but since the call isn't a large part of your stack and you're not close to the money, I think calling is probably a slightly +EV play.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, you're not closing the action, and there is a chance that the SB is planning on check raising. That possibility (like the possibility of the bettor being on a bluff, and the chance that the bettor will check the turn) is hard to quantify.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, either of those are hard to quantify. However, I would say that *either* of those being true is pretty likely - in other words, when you raise and have 3 callers, one of them is probably calling with at least Ax. And we know that UTG+1 didn't have one (since if he's calling preflop he'd call the 100 when he hits his Ace), making it that much more likely that one of the other two players had one.

[durron597]

The SB was planning on check-raising, it turns out.
Though he may not have if I had called.

No-limit Texas Hold'em $5+$.50 (real money), hand #
Single Table Tournament, 4 May 2005

Seat 1: UTG+1 ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 2: MP1 ($2,395 in chips)
Seat 3: MP2 ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 4: MP3 ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 5: CO-1 ($2,085 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero [K/images/graemlins/heart.gif,K/images/graemlins/club.gif] ($1,490 in chips)
Seat 7: Button ($1,460 in chips)
Seat 8: SB ($1,260 in chips)
Seat 9: BB ($770 in chips)
Seat 10: UTG ($1,040 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($10), BB posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
UTG calls $20, UTG+1 bets $50, MP1 calls $50, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $50, CO-1 folds, Hero bets $275, Button folds, SB calls $265, BB folds, UTG calls $255, UTG+1 calls $225, MP1 folds, MP3 folds.

FLOP [board cards A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif,5/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
SB checks, UTG bets $100, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds, SB bets $400, UTG calls $300.

TURN [board cards A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif,5/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
SB bets $200, UTG calls $200.

RIVER [board cards A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif,5/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/club.gif,4/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
SB bets $385 and is all-in, UTG calls $165 and is all-in.

SHOWDOWN
SB shows [ 9/images/graemlins/club.gif,8/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
UTG shows [ 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
SB wins $220, UTG wins $2,750.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
The SB was planning on check-raising, it turns out.
Though he may not have if I had called.

No-limit Texas Hold'em $5+$.50 (real money), hand #
Single Table Tournament, 4 May 2005

Seat 1: UTG+1 ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 2: MP1 ($2,395 in chips)
Seat 3: MP2 ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 4: MP3 ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 5: CO-1 ($2,085 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero [K/images/graemlins/heart.gif,K/images/graemlins/club.gif] ($1,490 in chips)
Seat 7: Button ($1,460 in chips)
Seat 8: SB ($1,260 in chips)
Seat 9: BB ($770 in chips)
Seat 10: UTG ($1,040 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($10), BB posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
UTG calls $20, UTG+1 bets $50, MP1 calls $50, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $50, CO-1 folds, Hero bets $275, Button folds, SB calls $265, BB folds, UTG calls $255, UTG+1 calls $225, MP1 folds, MP3 folds.

FLOP [board cards A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif,5/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
SB checks, UTG bets $100, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds, SB bets $400, UTG calls $300.

TURN [board cards A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif,5/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
SB bets $200, UTG calls $200.

RIVER [board cards A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,2/images/graemlins/club.gif,5/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/club.gif,4/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
SB bets $385 and is all-in, UTG calls $165 and is all-in.

SHOWDOWN
SB shows [ 9/images/graemlins/club.gif,8/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
UTG shows [ 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
SB wins $220, UTG wins $2,750.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha! Clearly this means I was correct /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Haha! Clearly this means I was correct /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you were. I was out-stupided by these damn $5.50 players. Too bad I've decided to build my BR from the tiny amount I have online instead of cashing in for more. Shouldn't take too long with play like this though /images/graemlins/grin.gif