Suggestions on a different line

[Billman]

PokerStars $33 RA. Top spot pays a spot to the main event at the WSOP and 2 - 13 pays $650. Started with 283 players and we're down to 21. I'm at $45,000 in chips with blinds at $1500/$3000. I'm about 10th in chips overall and the chip leader has about $150,000 with second around $85,000.

I catch AA UTG+1. I decided to get tricky so I just called in early position with my aces hoping someone would raise a big amount and I could come over the top all in. My concern was that any normal size raise here would induce folds around the table netting me only the blinds. The two big stacks at the table had been punishing limpers with big raises forcing them to lay their hands down so I thought this was a perfect place to play weak into them and let them make a big bet with a marginal hand. Instead I get three limpers (MP, SB, BB). Flop comes AKJ rainbow. The flop is a little scary but I'm hoping that by checking I'll induce a bluff and can come over the top. It gets checked to the BB and he bets about half the pot. I raise and MP calls. I don't have a read on MP since he was recently moved to our table. SB and BB fold. Turn is a blank and I fire again. He calls. River is a blank and I move all in figuring I'm not laying this hand down anyway and if he is on two pair than I want the rest of his chips. He calls and flips up QT for the flopped straight.

Was I simply destined to go broke on that hand? Any suggestions on how it could have been played differently? I've thought through several different lines I could have took but they all look better in retrospect and look very stupid had he had something like JT. If I had let him draw cheap on a hand like that and he sucked out I would have been kicking myself. Since he showed no aggression I don't think I can put him on a stronger hand. I even think it might have been a mistake for him to let me keep drawing to a boat because had the board paired it would have been him out of the tournament instead of me.

[Superfluous Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes AKJ rainbow. The flop is a little scary but I'm hoping that by checking I'll induce a bluff and can come over the top. It gets checked to the BB and he bets about half the pot. I raise and MP calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't really see how the flop is that scary. It's about as good as a flop can get for you. There's only one hand that beats you here. The smooth call might set off some alarm claxons, but I can't see how you can get away from this.

[A_PLUS]

I wouldnt beat your self up over the hand.

Here is my 2 cents:

If you decide to get tricky with Aces, you HAVE to be able to get away from them. The problem here, is you have the second nuts. So getting away from them would be difficult for anyone. At this stage in the game, it would take a better player than me to lay that hand down.

One part, you could / should have changed was the push on the river. Do you really think he calls the push on the river with AK, KJ? It is possible, but it is also possible he lays them down. Now if you check the river, he will almost always bet hands as poor as AQ, and maybe underbet the straight hoping to get paid off. If you cant get away from the set, I like the check call on the river better.

[A_PLUS]

If it makes you feel better, if I were in the hand, I would have raised you all-in preflop with TT, and chased out the QT for you and doubling you up.

[SossMan]

Given your reasoning, I think that you played it fine. How much did you checkraise on the flop. You aren't really that deep, so I can't really imagine a flop checkraise that isn't all in or close to it. If not all in on the checkraise then you certainly should be all in on the turn.

Obviously, with this payout structure, there are a number of lines you can take. Limping and going for the LRR is one of the most risky, but many times can be worth it.

[Billman]

[ QUOTE ]
One part, you could / should have changed was the push on the river. Do you really think he calls the push on the river with AK, KJ? It is possible, but it is also possible he lays them down. Now if you check the river, he will almost always bet hands as poor as AQ, and maybe underbet the straight hoping to get paid off. If you cant get away from the set, I like the check call on the river better.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking was that by limping pre-flop he couldn't put me on AA, KK, or JJ. That would mean that a resonable range of hands for a flop check raise would be hands like AJ, AQ, KJ, etc. Even some of those might seem unlikely since AQ would have been a raising hand UTG+1. So if he had KJ, which is what I put him on, he might think his hand is good here.

The other part of it is that by the turn bet both of us were so pot committed that neither of us can lay the hand down even if we think we're beat. I think we both started with about $45,000 (I ended up having $375 left over after this hand) and the all-in on the river was about $5000.

I don't have the hand history in front of me but is memory serves me correctly it went something like this:

$3000 blinds so $12,000 in the pot on the flop, BB bets $6000 making it $18,000 in the pot and I make it a total of $12,000 thinking I wouldn't mind a call here but I also wouldn't mind taking down the pot either. That makes it $30,000 in the pot and with his call it's a total of $60,000. On the turn I fired $25,000. Why not just go all in? Other than a brain freeze I have no other excuse. Anyway, with his call that left us both with about $5,000 and going all-in didn't seem like it was going to scare him out anyway.

[Billman]

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If it makes you feel better, if I were in the hand, I would have raised you all-in preflop with TT, and chased out the QT for you and doubling you up.

[/ QUOTE ]

When and where are you playing? I need you at my table /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Billman]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, with this payout structure, there are a number of lines you can take. Limping and going for the LRR is one of the most risky, but many times can be worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I knew it was risky going in but the big stacks at the table had been really punishing the limpers so I thought this was a perfect spot to double up on one of these guys when he flips up AT or K9 (which I had seen several times).

On one hand I could have just blinded into a $650 payday which might have been the smart move with the blinds that high and the chip leader has me $150,000/$45,000 but if I could double up here I'm really back in the game for taking first so it was a tough call.

[TonyBlair]

I don't see what's wrong with just playing for the blinds here. If someone comes in with you after you've raised and you still lose in this manner then fair enough.

I reckon the blinds are too big here to be messing around with AA preflop, even if you do think there's a good possibility of a raise behind you.

It was unlucky though.

[tiger7210]

NO PF raise- he doesn't really put anyone on a big pair and lets say you had limped with AJ, a lot of players don't mind letting you draw to 4 outs instead of trying to shut you out.

Preflop- at this stage of the tourny it sucks getting AA's UTG but I still say you have to raise. Not sure if that changes the outcome as QTs may have called.

Once the 2 of you saw the flop it doesn't matter what line you take, he's getting your chips unless you make a Helmuthian laydown.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
The other part of it is that by the turn bet both of us were so pot committed that neither of us can lay the hand down even if we think we're beat. I think we both started with about $45,000 (I ended up having $375 left over after this hand) and the all-in on the river was about $5000.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt think the hand through close enough. At that point, you are better off holding the 5K until the river hoping for a misclick.