Perhaps a Simple Question

[kurto]

$50NL table.

You have $50+ or more and you're on the button.

UTG+1 who has been relatively tight (18%/5% something like that), who only has a $20 stack raises to $4. Folds all around to you... who has pocket 10s.

Is this an autofold?

Here's my thoughts but I'm curious to know if I'm on the wrong track-
I usually like to play 10s for set value. Unless its heads up and I'm the one raising. The dude's raise was %20 of his stack, so I'm not getting proper odds to play for set value. (BAD)

He is a tight player raising from Early Position. Normally, that would put him on a decent PP (AA, KK, QQ possibly Js, AK and perhaps AQ). I'm a coinflip to AK/AQ and dominated by everything else. (BAD)

No one else is in the hand (except perhaps the blinds who have yet to act) so its possible there will be no additional chips available. (BAD)

Am I looking at this all wrong?

[unlucky513]

make is $12 to go.

[etgryphon]

Well, interpolating out the 5% pfr. (not exact science)

1326 *.05 = ~67 hands

This includes AA-99, AK, AQ roughly give or take a few hands. So with this information. I think that you could do one of two things.

1) call and bet into a safe flop: No A, K
2) fold.

I think it is a bit of a wash. I don't like the reraise pf. I don't think it will benefit you.

-Gryph

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
make is $12 to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay... but why? Considering the range of hands a tight player generally open-raises from UTG+1 I've got to be a huge underdog at worst and a coinflip at best. Since he has %20 of his stack invested and he clearly like's his hand (based on playing it in his position), my fold equity is pretty small.

Please explain.

[swolfe]

that's annoying, but i'd fold too.

[Jocke_F]

Good fold

[FlipPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
make is $12 to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay... but why? Considering the range of hands a tight player generally open-raises from UTG+1 I've got to be a huge underdog at worst and a coinflip at best. Since he has %20 of his stack invested and he clearly like's his hand (based on playing it in his position), my fold equity is pretty small.

Please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]
Making it $12 to go would probably force out the blinds and get you heads up with the raiser. If the SB or BB wakes up with a big hand, then you can release your hand.

The reraise also gives you control of the hand. You have position on the initial raiser. He could be making this move with AK or AQ. Even if he has a better hand like JJ or QQ, you may be able to take the pot away from him if a scare card like Ace or King falls because you showed aggression preflop.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
that's annoying, but i'd fold too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Is it wrong to yell at people for being shortstacked? /images/graemlins/mad.gif

I can't stand getting low-mid pocket pairs and having a $3-$5 raise by some dude who only has $20.

Sometimes I wonder if its worth calling just so that you can either get rid of them or give them a stack worth playing against. These 20BB pipsqueeks are irritating.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't stand getting low-mid pocket pairs and having a $3-$5 raise by some dude who only has $20.

Sometimes I wonder if its worth calling just so that you can either get rid of them or give them a stack worth playing against. These 20BB pipsqueeks are irritating.

[/ QUOTE ]

honestly, those are the only people i say anything to on the tables. something like "it looks like SOMEONE can't afford the stakes." or "oh, i'd call, but you just don't have enough money."

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if he has a better hand like JJ or QQ, you may be able to take the pot away from him if a scare card like Ace or King falls because you showed aggression preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's no way he's letting go of QQ or JJ with only $8 left into what would be a $25 pot.

[FlipPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
...Is it wrong to yell at people for being shortstacked? /images/graemlins/mad.gif ...I can't stand getting low-mid pocket pairs and having a $3-$5 raise by some dude who only has $20....These 20BB pipsqueeks are irritating.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is annoying. I used to think having a small stack didn't have advantages. Then I read this article:
Things to Keep in Mind Facing Short Stacks in No Limit Holdem (http://www.parttimepoker.com/poker-strategy-articles/09/no-limit-vsshortstacks.htm)

[bingledork]

Question: Did the small stack buyin small, or did he lose half his stack earlier?

If villian just bought in small, I'd push with TT. My experience with these small-stack guys is that they want to gamble. I've seen them flip over total junk lots of time.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
The reraise also gives you control of the hand. You have position on the initial raiser. He could be making this move with AK or AQ. Even if he has a better hand like JJ or QQ, you may be able to take the pot away from him if a scare card like Ace or King falls because you showed aggression preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I raise it another $12... and he calls, he's pot committed. (he'll have $16 of his $20 in the pot) If he calls my raise, then we're both all-in by the river regardless.

Because of this, the reraise only makes sense if you think (1) you have a decent chance of him folding and/or
(2) you're likely to have the best hand

Here's my thought on those 2-
(1) Does the guy who puts 20% of his stack fold a hand he put that much in? Let's say my hand range was accurate- what are the odds he folds the following.. here's my guess:
Aces- 0
Kings- 0
Queens- 10%
jacks- 25%
AK- 15%
AQ- 25%

These are rough guesses but I think they sound reasonable. I think the fact that he's got 20% in already diminishes the chance that he'll fold.

(2) Of all the hands he would play, the ones I have the best shot against are AQ and AK-
57 vs 43 unsuited... approx 53% vs 46% if his cards are suited.
All his other pocket pairs I'm likely a 4-1 underdog.

I know I'm argumentative by nature. I'm not discounting your plan, I just don't understand it based on how I understand the math. Where do you see me figuring wrong?

[etgryphon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reraise also gives you control of the hand. You have position on the initial raiser. He could be making this move with AK or AQ. Even if he has a better hand like JJ or QQ, you may be able to take the pot away from him if a scare card like Ace or King falls because you showed aggression preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I raise it another $12... and he calls, he's pot committed. (he'll have $16 of his $20 in the pot) If he calls my raise, then we're both all-in by the river regardless.

Because of this, the reraise only makes sense if you think (1) you have a decent chance of him folding and/or
(2) you're likely to have the best hand

Here's my thought on those 2-
(1) Does the guy who puts 20% of his stack fold a hand he put that much in? Let's say my hand range was accurate- what are the odds he folds the following.. here's my guess:
Aces- 0
Kings- 0
Queens- 10%
jacks- 25%
AK- 15%
AQ- 25%

These are rough guesses but I think they sound reasonable. I think the fact that he's got 20% in already diminishes the chance that he'll fold.

(2) Of all the hands he would play, the ones I have the best shot against are AQ and AK-
57 vs 43 unsuited... approx 53% vs 46% if his cards are suited.
All his other pocket pairs I'm likely a 4-1 underdog.

I know I'm argumentative by nature. I'm not discounting your plan, I just don't understand it based on how I understand the math. Where do you see me figuring wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

No...This is agood analysis of the situation. A PF reraise is not a good idea at all. If you really want to play the hand, then you could call. Maybe the SB and the BB will come along then that opens your options a bit.

I'm leaning on the fold here. As Lorinda once said, "Do you really need THIS pot..."

-Gryph

[kurto]

Thanks for the link. I love finding new sites with more articles to read.

And he's right. The shortstacks really limit what you can play (unless they raise and some big stack calls... then the shortstack is just a sidenote.)

[kurto]

I hear ya. But he hadn't bought in small. He had lost some hands and his stack had dwindled yet he never reloaded.

I didn't consider him on tilt, though, because he didn't just suffer a beat. He didn't seem to have 'loosened up' or anything.

Had he just suffered a huge loss and then did this, I probably would have put him all in.

[Triumph36]

I'll make an argument for calling, and hopefully someone will yell at me for it because I think it's fallacious.

I hate shortstacks at my table. If there's some idiot sitting there at my NL50 table with $10, in the blinds, I can't raise with suited connectors, medium aces, two big cards, or any of the mediocre garbage I like to play in position, for a raise, because deep-stacked blinds will call and then check/fold when they miss. So I'd call even though you're getting terrible implied odds and try to bust him out.

Okay, it is a bad argument, especially considering the guy raised to 8x the BB, which probably means he's weak tight with aces and he's seen his aces cracked four times in the last week, etc. etc.

[FlipPoker]

My reasoning is off. I forgot that he's shortstacked (I'm still learning how to deal with these small stacks). I was just trying to find a reason for reraising. I like Gryph's line of calling (if you want to play).

I've seen people make raises like this with AK and AQ, so I'm not ready to let TT go so easily.

[FlipPoker]

No problem. New articles appear occasionally. The quizzes are pretty good too.