AJ hand 6-max

[DavidC]

First Session of NLHE $25 6-max.
--------------------------------

I'd been in very good control of villain up to this point. He'd been seated to my right before, left the table for maybe 10 min, and came back and sat to my left.

Reads on Villain:
-----------------
6-max:
-seems willing to fold to me quite a bit
-weak bet means weak hand or specifically a draw
-cf then didn't bet when suited card came and didn't bluff at it or reraise.. folded-prone to tilt?
-bt when bp pred, but then fold, this aft resistance in a stl
-pfmr, minbetting on monf, blnk t, then br 1/2 on suited
-called me a crackhead
-utg pfr std
-limp and call raise 32o, cdtr str, br 1/5 pot
-pfmr bb vs 3 limpers
-pfmr jts
-br pot rivered pair aft no act urp in lp
-bt 2(crd) small aft no act, br small in lp when 2 prd riv, then massive re-raise to a checkraise

-----------------------------

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Hero ($66.65)</font>
<font color="#C00000">MP ($61.25)</font>
CO ($26.7)
Button ($40.7)
SB ($25)
BB ($21.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($5) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4.5</font>, MP calls $4.50, CO folds, SB folds, BB calls $4.50.

Turn: ($18.50) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $17</font>, MP calls $17, BB folds.

River: ($52.50) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $17</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $34</font>, Hero calls $17.

Final Pot: $120.50

-------------------------------

I think it's safe to say that I should fold the river. However, what do you think of my initial river bet? Should I have made it a bit less.

I've never used a blocking bet before. Is this a good case to use one?

Please comment on the river, as well as the rest of the hand.

--Dave.

Edit: Anyone needs interpreting for the notes, let me know.

--Dave.

[jonnyUCB]

Good blocking bet. Bad river call. Here's the logic, he called 17 dollar bet from you to win 17 + ~17(in the pot) = 34. He is calling 2-to-1 on a draw (assume this is what he has) which he has a 4-to-1 shot to make, or worse.

Now the reason we call like this in NLHE is to make up the odds with implied ones. In order for his call to be correct, he has to win 17 x 4 to make his 4-to-1 shot "even money" (which isn't 100 percent true since he'll lose money even when he misses when he pays u off with TJ or whatever crap). Unfortunately in this hand, he achieves just that when you pay him off the additional 17 x 2 he was missing from the original turn decision. If you fold to his raise, he's still made a -EV move and you win. Hence the blocking bet.

Also may want to consider checking and calling a reasonable bet (under 15) as no hand will bet after being checked to except a bluff heart draw or the made straight. Any high jack checks fearing the ace. I can't interpret the notes completely, but I don't think he's aggr enough to make this move with a miss flush draw or just Ax hearts, right? If he is I might have done a ch/r allin on the turn (though his bet would likely have been significantly less than your bet on the turn was, if he bet at all).

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Good blocking bet. Bad river call. Here's the logic, he called 17 dollar bet from you to win 17 + ~17(in the pot) = 34. He is calling 2-to-1 on a draw (assume this is what he has) which he has a 4-to-1 shot to make, or worse.

Now the reason we call like this in NLHE is to make up the odds with implied ones. In order for his call to be correct, he has to win 17 x 4 to make his 4-to-1 shot "even money" (which isn't 100 percent true since he'll lose money even when he misses when he pays u off with TJ or whatever crap). Unfortunately in this hand, he achieves just that when you pay him off the additional 17 x 2 he was missing from the original turn decision. If you fold to his raise, he's still made a -EV move and you win. Hence the blocking bet.

Also may want to consider checking and calling a reasonable bet (under 15) as no hand will bet after being checked to except a bluff heart draw or the made straight. Any high jack checks fearing the ace. I can't interpret the notes completely, but I don't think he's aggr enough to make this move with a miss flush draw or just Ax hearts, right? If he is I might have done a ch/r allin on the turn (though his bet would likely have been significantly less than your bet on the turn was, if he bet at all).

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense, thanks.

He was a little aggressive preflop, but easy to run over post-flop, and his aggression preflop involved bet sizes so small (unless he had something) that it wasn't really a big deal.

--Dave.

[swolfe]

another line could be to check/call the river. this would keep the last bet under control and widen the range of hands that you'll win some money from since a missed heart draw may take a shot at it.

[Malachii]

What do you do if Villain pushes all in? Sigh and fold? Although I don't really like the river bet myself, as I don't see him calling with anything you beat.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do if Villain pushes all in? Sigh and fold? Although I don't really like the river bet myself, as I don't see him calling with anything you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes a lot of sense.

If I check, how big of a bet can I call? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Can I call a push?

--Dave.

[swolfe]

part of checking to induce a bluff means that you have to call ANY bet. that's why you only do it when you're pretty sure that your hand is good.

in this case, any T beats you, so i think the blocking bet was a better idea, although it needs to be bigger...probably around $30. broken draws will be less likely to bluff raise you, and you can be pretty sure that a rasie/push means you're beaten. with the bet that you made, you're showing some pretty good weakness, and someone may pop you back representing a T.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
part of checking to induce a bluff means that you have to call ANY bet. that's why you only do it when you're pretty sure that your hand is good.

in this case, any T beats you, so i think the blocking bet was a better idea, although it needs to be bigger...probably around $30. broken draws will be less likely to bluff raise you, and you can be pretty sure that a rasie/push means you're beaten. with the bet that you made, you're showing some pretty good weakness, and someone may pop you back representing a T.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool.

That sucks, but cool.

Since he/I only had $34 left in play, on a pot of $50, I may as well push then, since i can't fold to the $4.

As it turned out, buddy was calling me the whole way with QTo for the straight. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

--Dave.

[swolfe]

that sucks, man.

FWIW, i think this illustrates one of the problems with raising AJo from UTG /images/graemlins/smile.gif

but then, i don't play 6-max.

[Publos Nemesis]

Raising AJ UTG is fine at the 6max, because then you are in MP for the rest of the hand. Having played the $25 6-max for only a few thousand hands now, I am not sure what a good preflop reraise is, but I think that 5xBB or $1.25 is better. It just forces the fish to put more money into the pot with their crappy hands.

I think your betting was fine on the flop. However, given your reads on the villain, you could overbet the turn and try to get all-in with him. At the 6-maxes, the goal is to play very few hands and to bust out the fishes when you hit big. However you can get all-in on the turn you should try.

The problem major problem with betting like you did on the turn means that any action on the river will have to be for at most 3/5 of the pot. I really dislike leaving myself not enough to cover the pot by the river.

Given that you both have only $34 on the river, I think a blocking bet is tough to pull off. First, for a blocking bet to be effective, it needs to be big enough, which $17 was like the mininum if not too small given the $50 pot. However, IMO, anything he is calling with he might as well put in his last $17. Thus he is either folding or raising all-in. If that is the case, and if you are willing to call his last $17 (which I think you almost have to given that you get 6:1 on the call) then you might as well push. However, if you check the river, then you be less likely to have to put in the full amount. I would call a bet of up to half the pot ($25).

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
that sucks, man.

FWIW, i think this illustrates one of the problems with raising AJo from UTG /images/graemlins/smile.gif

but then, i don't play 6-max.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this has been resolved just yet...

At the river, I don't have enough in my stack to make a blocking bet, because any blocking bet that isn't a push commits me to a push for two reasons:
1) If I block 30 it's only 4 in a 112 pot.
2) If I block weak it looks good for a steal.

I don't like pushing, because it won't be called by a hand that's worse than me.

And I can't block.

So this leaves two options:

1) Check-fold.
2) Check-call.

That makes sense, right?

So, please comment on whether or not I'm correct in this conclusion, as well as which one you think is best.

Check fold will be derided by 2+2ers everywhere, and little girls will laugh at me on the street for being a wimp, but that's never stopped me in the past. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The reason that I like check calling this river is that this is a good spot for a busted flush to make a move.

As an aside, I have no idea how this hand indicates that I shouldn't be raising AJo from UTG... It's quite possible that I shouldn't, but I'm not sure that this is the hand that reveals that wisdom: The difficulty in this hand was based on the board rather than on the strength of the starting hand, I think.

I'm a nit.

--Dave.

[fathertime]

I'd raise more preflop utg--1.5. But if 1 has been working for you, stay with it.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise more preflop utg--1.5. But if 1 has been working for you, stay with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty comfortable with 1.

Something's been working for me, probably, but I haven't figured out what it is, yet. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Check-fold.
2) Check-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually like the check-fold because the heart draw is the only thing that you realistically beat.

it's hard for me to look at the river decision in isolation though because i wouldn't have gotten there to begin with.

i know it's 6-max, but if i were in MP in a full ring and it was folded to me, i'd still probably muck AJo. it's the worst of the trap hands because will make you a 2nd best hand way too often. i usually only play AJo for straight value and only after a couple of limpers. it's a hand that i want to see a cheap flop with and either hit a monster or get out.

my PF% for 89s is much higher than my PF% for AJo.


another concept that should be mentioned here is hitting two pair with connectors, especially broadways, usually puts someone on a straight draw.

[TrailofTears]

As an alternative, David, if you know you are going to call his raise, you can just put villain all-in and let him find the will to fold this. This is only if you are going to put out a bet at all. Check-fold isn't terrible, as he will likely check behind with any hand that you beat here, as he is just as scared of a T if he doesn't have one.

-T

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Check-fold.
2) Check-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually like the check-fold because the heart draw is the only thing that you realistically beat.

it's hard for me to look at the river decision in isolation though because i wouldn't have gotten there to begin with.

i know it's 6-max, but if i were in MP in a full ring and it was folded to me, i'd still probably muck AJo. it's the worst of the trap hands because will make you a 2nd best hand way too often. i usually only play AJo for straight value and only after a couple of limpers. it's a hand that i want to see a cheap flop with and either hit a monster or get out.

my PF% for 89s is much higher than my PF% for AJo.


another concept that should be mentioned here is hitting two pair with connectors, especially broadways, usually puts someone on a straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for info re: check-fold.

---

As long as we're going to hash this out (analyzing AJ's influence on our decisions), how would you play this hand differently if you had AA?

My PFR standard raise is 4xbb in UTG... so you can't change that part of it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

---

Lastly, we've been looking at the river quite heavily. Is there another point at which you would have played this hand differently (other than PF?).

What you say makes sense, though... I don't know if AJo is +EV for me, and if it were, it wouldn't be by much, and I'm no where near close to sample size req to see for sure yet.

--Dave.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I bet 12 on turn and 15 on river (folding to any raise.)

[swolfe]

with AA, i would have played it exactly the same way you did except i would have check/called or pushed the river. not sure which still...

...and i would have lost my stack with it.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
with AA, i would have played it exactly the same way you did except i would have check/called or pushed the river. not sure which still...

...and i would have lost my stack with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, with top set you're committed. I guess this was a bad example for the Aces question.

I could realistically be ahead of two pair, but I think they would have played back to try to shut down draws, etc. Hard to tell though.

Re the question about what you would have done differently, I mean on the flop and turn... we've kicked the crap out of the river already.

I'm curious if anyone would overbet the flop, and how they would respond to a call? (push the turn, or check? if check, do you call or fold to a push?... the problem with the turn is that the ace is scary to someone with just a pair, but hte overbetting the flop pretty much clears that possibility up...).

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet 12 on turn and 15 on river (folding to any raise.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems to make some sense. Feel like expanding on that at all? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'll expand here, and you can correct me if I go wrong.

---------

If we bet 12 on the turn, we're betting 2/3 the pot, giving the villain direct pot odds of 5/3:2/3... uh, 5:2 I mean. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

To call 2, he would need to be assured of getting 9 on the river.

Betting 15 on the river: which is roughly the pot, is offering 8:2 odds, not the 9:2 that he needs to call (assuming he has a flush draw). Pretty sweet. It's actually even a little lowwer than this number, because $15 is only 5/6 the turn pot.

Problem is, will they raise without a ten? Will they call with a worse two pair?

If they have a worse two pair and you check they will almost definitely check.

Furthermore a bet of $15 on the river and $12 on the turn give me $34 left in my stack. (Ahem I mean $28.75 left in his stack, since I have him covered)

That pot, when he pushes, is going to be something like $90 with $30 to call. 3:1 odds... I could be safe in saying that greater than 1 in 4 times he's going to have the ten, I think.

--Dave.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Yup. I would also be worried about a set, though. Hitting that ace could be very bad for you if you are only focusing on a worse two pair and get smoked by a guy who had you drawing near dead the whole time.