Raising for value on 3rd street , 7-stud hi lo.

[Tom D]

I don’t think I raise enough for value on third street with a low draw, but I can’t find many opportunities I’m comfortable with. The reason is that I muck on fourth street almost all the time (rightly so I think) when I brick, whether it’s a raised pot or not, and it feels like I’m throwing away a lot of bets for no good reason.

I’m actually more likely to make it three bets, on third, than two, because then I’ll usually take it to fifth street even if I don’t improve on fourth, unless things get too out of shape.

So, I seem to raise for value in multi-way pots only when I have big hands like A, 2, 5 suited, which don’t come along very often.

Does anyone else have this problem, or is it a problem?

Tom D

[Andy B]

You play hold'em? A lot of times you put in a raise before the flop with AK, miss, and check and fold. That doesn't make your pre-flop raise any less correct.

I can appreciate not wanting to put in a lot of money on third when your hand is largely defined by your fourth street card. I probably do too much third street raising, but I like to gamble, and I like to think it intimidates my opponents. Anyway, if you are playing against oblivious players, it doesn't hurt much, if at all, if you never raise on third street with a three-card low. You should be able to get your money in as a larger favorite on a later street. If you are playing against observant opponents, you will be giving away too much information. If you only raise third street with big pairs, they will be able to adjust accordingly.

I limp and re-raise on third a lot, perhaps more than I should. This helps sow some doubt in my opponents' minds. If I limp in early, and there's no completion behind me, they can't know for certain that I'm not loaded. If you limp/re-raise with strong lows, it also frequently makes it correct to peel if you catch a banana on fourth street.


Banana? Peel? Get it? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Vehn]

I tend to raise with a decent 3-low with an ace door card about 75% of the time on 3rd. Other than that I generally won't unless I have a premium 3 low like 3 to a low straight or flush or 6-low with an ace and there were lots of loose limpers in front of me. But the game I play the completion on 3rd is only 1/2 of a small bet so its kind of a wash.

[AlanBostick]

I think the decision to raise or not on third street shouldn't be done on the basis of value so much as for overall tactical considerations.

Sometimes the bring-in is a deuce, you've got a baby showing, it's folded to you, and and there are one or two bricks showing between you and the bring-in. This is a decent stealing opportunity, and I'd consider a raise with just about any "playable" hand, and some crap if I have an ace showing.

You should think a lot about how your hand plays against what it is liable to be up against. Superb starters like low straight-flush cards don't mind crowds, but would really rather that it wasn't up against good low draws. Be more inclined to raise with a 345 in early position if you see babies as upcards waiting to act; you want to put heat on them and force them to fold unless they are really good hands. Contrariwise, with the same hand in late position, you would be more inclined to call when babies have limped but raise when sixes or sevens are in the pot.

Do I want to play head-up, or do I want other players contributing to the pot? If you'd rather play head-up, then raising from early position helps toward that goal. If you want a multiway pot, then limping and possibly reraising if a player after raises and the right number of players call can be an option.

[Dick in Phoenix]

I played some hours a while back on Turbo 7s8, with the experiment of giving myself A75, with the 5 up I think, with aggressive raising and re-raising by me on 3rd if the Ace was live. I did not run an automatic simulation; I actually played each hand against the computer opponents.

I rocked !! Playing 6-12, I was up $936 after 175 hands, with the gains hour by hour (25 hands per hr) pretty consistent.

I found this hand to play very well with any number of opponents. Furthermore, my 3rd st. aggression usually got me a free 4th street card if I bricked - another shot at a 4-low or a pair of Aces. I kept the bet/raise pressure on for 4th street with ANY improvement at all, including any pair, 3-flush, or 3-straight on 4th. With the Ace LIVE (remember, I don't raise if another Ace is out), it also seems that I spiked another Ace surprisingly often - I didn't do the math yet on this.

I then tried A78; I guess I'm a masochist. I still finished up a little - up 200 in 400 hands - but the swings were wild. I just limp with this hand, even with a live Ace.

In real life, as you can imagine, re-raising and capping with nothing more than an A57 mixes up my play beautifully, as that is how I behave with AA or with rolled-up trips as well, along with pure value raises holding something like 345 (with the only difference being that I only value raise with a 345 type hand if many opponents are already in).

[Tom D]

It looks like I need to tweak my third-street raises up a notch. I do raise with an Ace door-card often, as vehn mentioned, to disguise my raises when I have Aces; and I limp and re-raise, as Andy B mentioned, but probably not as much as I should.

I think Dick’s simulation experiments are interesting. They seem to show pretty clearly how powerful a live Ace is. It might be revealing to run the same experiments without third-street raises, to see how the strategies compare.

Thanks,

Tom D

[Tom D]

Excellent post. I knew my original narrow question was unrealistically simplistic, and as you’ve pointed out, there are few black and white answers in poker. I’m beginning to think third-street is far more complicated playing hi-lo than it is playing straight stud.

Tom D

[AlanBostick]

I found [the hand (A 3) 5] to play very well with any number of opponents. Furthermore, my 3rd st. aggression usually got me a free 4th street card if I bricked - another shot at a 4-low or a pair of Aces.

In the tougher games I play in, the only way you would get a free card in that spot is if everyone else still in the hand bricked up also