View Full Version : Diversity in Hiring
BruceZ
11-20-2002, 03:25 PM
The company I used to work for promoted diversity in hiring. If you wanted to hire someone, personnel would hand you a stack of resumes largely from minorities, mostly Chinese, Indian, or Arabs, that they would like to see you hire. The funny thing is, some of these minorities that were hired went on to become hiring managers themselves, and they populated their groups with all other's like themselves. So you'd walk down the hall to the software group, and everyone was speaking Chinese. You go to the test group, and everyone was an Arab. You might think that the international group would be the most diverse, but nope, they were all Indians. Apparently the only people really interested in promoting a diverse workplace were the white mangagers.
Now, if you have a stack of resumes where someone really went out of their way to include lots of resumes from minorities, what do you think the average competency level will be of those applicants compared to the smaller group of non-minority applicants? If you only have time to select 5 resumes out of hundreds to bring in for an interview, and your goal is to select the best qualified candidates, which pile does probability dictate that you should be pulling from most often? You don't even have to consider the fact that a high percentage of the minority applicants have serious communication problems. I'm sure some of you won't like the answer.
diversity is our strength.
withing group differences are greater than between group differences. ( i said it wrong but like more range of differences between mens height than between average men -women height.)
lots of gobblygook meant to further socialist aim of america. a lot of my teachers (went to college and university in san diego) freely admitted it.
now with homeland security we're gonna see more emphasis on fascism.
what we're seeing is the destruction of america. look to brazil or argentina for whats in our future. (very small wealthy, no middle class, etc.)
hope you guys enjoy it.
Jimbo
11-20-2002, 04:31 PM
Brad, Brad, Brad, Brad, Brad, you wrote: "now with homeland security we're gonna see more emphasis on fascism.
what we're seeing is the destruction of america. look to brazil or argentina for whats in our future. (very small wealthy, no middle class, etc.)" What on earth are you babbling about now? You have any justification for this drastic change in our economy? Do you realize how difficult and time consuming this osmosis would be to achieve even with a military dictatorship? Give me a break, hey Brad, ask your dad his opinion, I seem to remember you mentioning he knows everything. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
Actually, look to the U.S. Virgin Islands for a preview of how the demographics will go.
Originally Arawak Indians were chased off by europeans, who brought african slave.
When enough Africans existed they booted the europeans.
When Africans move in, everyone else moves out. Simple fact. Property values decline, crime goes up. Their aids rate is 800% higher, violent homicide rate %600 higher, out of wedlock birth rate %300 higher.
As for economic trends. Yup... if you're not in the elite upper percentage, chance are you are a worker... i.e in the servant class.
Ironic isn't it. America is 90 some percent workers, but the rules favor the rich. Oops, sorry, we're not a Democracy... we're a Federal Republic. Go check the CIA world book on the web for that little tidbit.
So anyway.... suppose you're a rich senator..."Hmmm.... how do we keep the poor from wanting to revolt... and the middle from amassing enough to upset the status quo?"... "Oh... I know... tax the middle and give some to the bottom...."
It's all about the money son it's all about the money. And if you're rich enoungh to live apart from all the "white trash" and "diverse types" why would you care what the demgraphics in your factory are? After all, you have the executive wash room so you don't have to rub elbows with the unwashed masses (and they are... can't tell you how many techno types here don't wash thier hands in the men's room... so we're
all shaking hands with thier crud on all the door knobs)...
Trust me, if you can get there.... the "exclusive" ranks of society are the only place to be. To bad for all of us on the bottom side of the class ladder.
Anyways... the folks that talk about these things point out that the rich decided to have the "Liberal Management Reform"... i.e let just enough buckage out that they don't revolt. Here in the US our leaders are good at finding the line. Over in Russia.. they wern't so good. Hence the overthrow of the Czar, by the commies... overthrow of the commies by the Capitalists... wonder what'll be next.
Then of course there's what the founding fathers realized... that if the masses could really vote.... the treasury would be voted away... and so would thier land rights.
US gov't was set up from the beginning to stem the "tyranny of the masses" and provide preferred access to the rich.
End of the story there.
Go study history. Be sure to check out "The Prince", "Book of Five Rings" and "Art of War"
and "Democracy in America" for starters.
Ahh yes, the apologists.... seems it's ok to have an NAACP but not an NAAWP...
A "Black Business League" but not a white one.
In fact, take any group that has the word "Black" in it and substitute "White" and you're a ractist
But the "blacks aren't"..
Compare "Soul Train" to "Bandstand" and on and on.... Where's the token white in the Cosby show?
Blah blah blah. It's clear to anyone who looks.
Clarkmeister
11-20-2002, 05:18 PM
You obviously didn't watch the Cosby Show very closely.
ripdog
11-20-2002, 05:38 PM
I assume that your industry required a college degree in order to be considered for employment, right? I look at the populations of China and India and see a huge talent pool for those countries to draw from, way bigger than ours. The combined populations of China and India make up over a third of the world's population. With that fact in mind, it seems to me that you would be more likely to find the most qualified applicants in the minority stack. If you're trying to make this a "white man versus the world" issue, then you're the one that's not going to like the answer. The sheer numbers that we're up against tells me that it's a losing battle. It's analogous to a B-11 high-school football program taking on a AAAA program. Most of the time the little guy will get crushed. How do you like being the little guy?
they just passed homeland security. just wait. what is it the nazis did that was in all the movies? stop people and ask for their papers?
as for economics (brazil) i mean like in 50 years.
Jimbo
11-20-2002, 06:13 PM
Whew! Brad my papers are in order, thank you very much and in 50 years I will be dead and buried. I suppose you poor little young pups are in for rough economic times ahead. Better practice your military drills Brad, you are either with them or against them. Auchtung!
you sound like my dad. i guess america wasnt such a great idea after all.
but youll live long enough to see per mile road tax. (enabled by satellite tracking to see how much u drive). after all, if you use the road, u should pay for it, and if u use it a lot, u should pay a lot.
Jimbo
11-20-2002, 07:52 PM
I sound like your Dad? Is that to be considered a left-handed compliment Brad? My company pays all my auto expenses but I did not know that there was a per mile driving tax in the works. Just when will that go into effect Brad?
yes it is in the works. is it so hard to believe when were eating foods spliced with cockroach (or whatever) genes?
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=london+per+mile+tax&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3c7b5c90_1%40news.tm.net.my&rnum=2
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=london+per+mile+tax&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=jomn7uc6i7928qc9ivdsuvoe858156937d%404ax.co m&rnum=1
first thing that came up.
ill post some other primary links when i come across them.
youre the same age as my dad and sound very similiar so take it however you want. ill say one thing though (definitely applies to my dad probably not to you) - when traffic checkpoints become very routine my dads gonna find it increasingly difficult to avoid a dui or the lesser charge dwi or whatever. heh
as far as being with them or against them that is the only reason i bought guns.
http://money.cnn.com/2002/11/19/news/microchip.reut/
'
Microchip implanted under your skin?
Implanting microchip on humans has sparked heated debate between scientists and privacy advocates.'
just cnn. heh
jimbo i never lie. really.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1841315.stm
'The announcement follows news of other long-term plans to tax motorists around the UK according to the distance they drive.
Under those charges motorists could have to pay up to 45p a mile to use the busiest routes.
'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1838185.stm
The commission, which provides independent transport advice to the government, said Global Positioning System satellites would track vehicles via electronic black boxes fixed to the dashboard.
...
Monthly charges would be levied according to the time of day the car is travelling, and the type of road used.
BruceZ
11-20-2002, 10:06 PM
The resumes were not drawn from the entire world's population, but from those of students in the US. The international students are a minority (though becoming less so).
Now if Americans did have to compete against the entire world, then it's true we would have a minority in numbers; but there is an issue of quality vs. quantity. It's like comparing a small number of ivy league students to a large number of students from state schools. Foreign students are way ahead of us up to a certain level of education. Beyond that level, in math and engineering, we kick their butts. That is why they want to study here in the first place, even though many return to their own countries when their education is complete.
IrishHand
11-20-2002, 10:15 PM
what we're seeing is the destruction of america. look to brazil or argentina for whats in our future. (very small wealthy, no middle class, etc.)
Umm...statistically speaking that's pretty much what we have now anyway. The distribution of wealth in this country is among the worst (most extreme, which means huge amount of relative poverty) in the world. Not sure what your point (or lack thereof) has to do with the topic of the thread though.
Irish
Ryan_21
11-20-2002, 10:34 PM
And thats the whole point of my thread below.
When it is against blacks it a big friggin deal. When it happens to whites, its acceptable to look the other way. WTF. Even if nothing abnormal is happening, it is still made a big freakin deal of if they are black.
I mean seriously, how is it ok to have BET, NAACP, black colleges, a friggin whole MONTH (feb) dedicated to black people. But whites get nothing, and if they wanted something of similar nature its racism?
Ryan_21
not true america still has a very large middle class.
Clarkmeister
11-20-2002, 10:37 PM
Here is a simple question:
Would you rather live in this country as a black man or a white man?
Case Closed.
Ryan_21
11-20-2002, 10:39 PM
It bothers me that the only part of his/her post that you felt needed a response was the Cosby show part. This is what I mean by looking the other way when it is discrimination/or reverse disc. for that matter, against whites.
The points he/she is making are important and deserve more attention.
Ryan_21
if i was trying to get into a great grad school then definitely black woman.
Ryan_21
11-20-2002, 10:56 PM
If I wanted $$/scholorships/grants for college, definately black.
Do you realize they give away thousands of scholorships/ and thousands of dollars every and you only need one qualification. Being BLACK.
Heaven forbid if there was a scholorship foundation for white people.
Ryan_21
Clarkmeister
11-20-2002, 11:02 PM
Brad and Ryan,
The question isn't "is there a moment in time where you would like to be black"
The question is "Would you rather live your entire life as a black man or a white man in the USA"
do i get the stereotypical black endowment?
and do i get to be cool?
btw the person i most ever seemed to be on the same level with (i swear to god we could pretty much read each others mind and know exactly what the other guy was talking about which was hard cause we both never said what we meant) was a black guy from jaimaca (he was normal though no dreds or pot use or anything.)
Ryan, you have an very shallow view of the world. I'll address a few issues.
Scholarships: Whites are well-represented in college and there is no real point in encouraging more to apply. And if you want a scholarship for whites only, start one yourself. Most of the minority scholarships are privately funded.
NAACP: There's an NAAWP as well. The reason you don't hear of it is that there's not a lot of work for them to do.
Black colleges: It's just plain idiotic to complain about this. Those colleges don't ban whites from attending. And in fact, whites can get minority scholarships! So I really don't see your point here.
BET: What would be the POINT of a WET? Whites are the majority. That means almost every station targets white audiences. What do you feel you're missing by not having a WET? And why do you even care if BET exists?
As for your comment that "whites get nothing," maybe you should consider that whites HAVE everything. What is it you'd like to see? Whites go to the best schools, live in the best neighborhoods, run all the top companies, go to prison proportionally less than most other races, etc.
the point is that if two 18 year olds, one white and one black, are both dirt poor, the black male has the advantage in certain handout areas.
of course a bilingual spanish-english speaker has them beat hands down for getting a job.
heh
on the other hand white guys i *think* have an easier time getting black women than black guys have getting white women, so thats a big plus. (for white guys anyway)
Easy E
11-21-2002, 09:47 AM
Jimbo
11-21-2002, 11:48 AM
Brad thanks for the links. I can rest easier now that it is England discussing a per mile driving tax and not the US. Your mistake is understandable I may sound like I have a British accent but I proudly live here in the good old USA! As for cockroach genes I heard the little critters can be quite tasty if properly prepared. Either sauted or oven roasted comes to mind. I have had choclate covered ants and fried grasshoppers so the little roaches may be just as tasty. Now you are welcome to implant me with your tracking device if you like. As I age and forget where I am it may be easier for me to call the local tracking station and request they point me in the correct direction, nothing like a little help for the elderly. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
the distribution of wealth in this country is probably greater than in any other country in the world. we have a large middle class and a tremendous standard of living. unlike in other countries even the lowest 25% in income own cars, houses, have vcr's etc. so what if people like bill gates exist from a disparity perspective.
Pat
Ryan_21
11-21-2002, 02:32 PM
"Those colleges don't ban whites from attending"
But, they dont encourage it either and if you are a whiter person attending a black college and you arent down w/ hip hop and act black you wont last a week.
"maybe you should consider that whites HAVE everything."
And why is it that whites have everything? Whites took over this country w/ force, they worked hard to build it up from nothing, they worked hard to make it a better place, they worked hard to make their lives and the lives for the next generation better and better. Key words, they WORKED HARD to get what they have.
"What is it you'd like to see?"
I'd like to see minorities do the same thing as whites did and work hard to GET everything, instead of them just having it HANDED to them by everyone (gov't, etc).
Sorry that whites DO have everything, but they deserve it b/c they worked hard to GET it. Sorry that blacks/minorities dont have everything, but its kind of hard to get everything by relying on others to just give it to you.
Ryan_21
God, This man is an ignorant racist that perpetuates hatred and stereotypes. Please either make him see the light, or at least have him shut up.
Amen
Ryan_21
11-21-2002, 03:01 PM
So now, telling the truth is being racist? What has this world come to when one cant tell it like it is and spare everyone the politically correct bs?
Ryan_21
IrishHand
11-21-2002, 03:10 PM
"Telling it like it is" and "telling it the way I see it which appears to any rational observer to be racist" isn't the same thing.
Ryan_21
11-21-2002, 03:36 PM
"telling it the way I see it"
Its not just the way I see it, its the way it is in society. Society is way over sensitive to black peoples wants and needs. This is not my opinion this is fact.
Ex: Two white people were on BET last night and they had a website called blackpeopleloveus.com or something of that nature. Well anyway this caused a big uproar b/c some people thought that this was offensive and racist to blacks. Hello, you got to be friggin kidding me, this is not offensive or racist, how over sensitive is our society.
Then when the tables are turned and blacks blatently make fun of whites on comicview/movies/t.v. shows/or in rap music. Nothing is ever mentioned? Why? Where is the over sensitiveness then?
Ryan_21
Well, I started some of the sub threads here. So let me just toss out a point or two.
First, would you really want your daughter or sister dating homie the crack dealer?
Especially given the AIDS and out of wedlock birth rates for Africans.
Homie isn't the same as Denzel Washington or Will Smith... I promise... He'll probably abuse her when she get hooked on crack and runs out of money. Sort of like "He're you rocks right her baby" or maybe some sodomy for payment? Like "Bend over you little white coke whore." Think about it. Put your daughter/sister
in the female position and tell me how you feel. And thank Hollywood for making coke and Africans look "cool". 'couse Whiteys pull this too. Many men are pigs.
Would you have wanted the Hatians that landed in Miami recently to settle on your block? Hmm... somehow I think we know the answer.
Hollywood is pushing more and more scenes with African men paired up with white women. I think the idea is that if they can get the Africans accepted then
a WWII type of "cleansing" is less likely to occur.
Bottom line, there seems to be a media led Africanization of American culture. Perhaps it's just that it sells. who knows, but biologists might call them an "invasive species". The animal world precedent is "Killer Bees" a.k.a. "Africanized Bees". Think about it. They move in, the rest move out. Heck they'll get what the commies wanted. To take over "without firing a shot".
(To be honest there was a militiry let Eurpeanization of America.... I can sympathize with the Native Americans on this, though I am of European descent. I think the NA's had better intergration with nature than us europeans... we mucked up the whole continent in may ways. Question is, are we going to let it get more messed up?)
Ok, now my real philosophy is that everyone, even folks I don't care to rub elbows with should be able to lead a great, prosperous life. But what about my right to not have a particular group shoved up my nose, too? Nobody can pick thier parents. (But they can pick thier behavior can't they? I don't recall Elvis shooting at the Beatles like these "Gansta Rappers", do you? Can't help if these bahaviors fall on a racial boundary.) Second, we've all been talking about wealth distribution. Who cares about being "middle class" or "working class"? These are the classes to *escape*. Why should most of us work hard 'till we die while others partying?
The idea is that we the majority, if this were a real democracy, would dictate to our leaders that we want things engineered so that we can all live like the elite. All the BS of life should be automated away by technology as much as possible and we should spend more of our live living and loving. Instead we're on an worker bee tread mill.
If productivity has gone up so much, why does it take two 40 hour incomes to get a good house instead of one 20 hour week? Our parents could get good
property on one 40 hour week. So where'd the benefit of productivity go? Up the ladder...
As for the dufus that said we, the USA kick but in engineering... well maybe... but a lot of computer science jobs are be sent over to India by USA companies... And let's not get into NAFTA and GATT.... our own economic elites selling us out maybe? After 9/11 they said "Buy stock... keep america afloat... buy American"... yet they buy foreign labor!!! Besides... I know Americans who are *contractors* in USA companies that have hired foriegners as *direct* employees! Bottom line here: Money has it's own agenda, and it (they) don't care about you any more than they have to, to prevent a meltdown that would make thier assets
worthless and see them at the proverbial guillotine.
Yes, the USA is still #1, but if we don't pay attention, that could change. As someone once said, "The price of freedom is constant vigilance".
Really, Bill and Ted had it right. "Be excellent to each other and party". To bad we can't do it.
As for Affirmative Action... enough already. Equal in eyes of the law should be sufficient. Not preffered treatment.
Well enough said. We should all have place where we can live as we want, without each other impinge on each of other.
You want integrated friends... fine... you don't... fine... you want integrated customers at your business... fine.. you don't fine...
Problem is, how can you achieve this in an increasingly populated world. Probably can't... so the usual thing will happen... wars.
People are stupid. We can split the atom... go to the moon... but we still shoot at each other and squabble over dollars rather than
building utopia.
So you're stuck with the usual question. How do you extricate *your* life from this mess?
ripdog
11-21-2002, 05:00 PM
I just don't think that you can say that if you take a large stack of the resumes of minorities versus a small stack of resumes submitted by nice white folks, that you'll surely find the most qualified people in one stack or the other. Actually, my wife is an engineer and has noticed that people of Indian decent are much easier to work with than their white counterparts. She often complains about "poor self-esteem boys" making her work life difficult. They've all been white to this point. She happens to be Chinese, but you'd never know it by listening to her speak. I think you have a valid point about how unfair it is to hire people based more on the color of their skin than their qualifications, but your original argument is full of holes (and impossible to prove). I doubt that the average white person is more qualified than the average minority person.
Jimbo
11-21-2002, 06:36 PM
Brad please don't be angry with me, I enjoy our bantering!
no im happpy go lucky.
but u say no plans then i show concrete plans.
are britain america so different?
compare surveilance cameras scanning public.
just being implemented here, but british cities are dense wiith monitoring video cameras.
p.s. will u really take a microchip? btw if u reallly want one tthey r now commercially available 2 general public.
Jimbo
11-21-2002, 08:11 PM
Errr, Brad, yes Britain and America are radically different. Have you ever lived or even visited there? They drive on the left side of the road, the lawyers wear wigs and call themselves barristers and solicitors, the girls talk oh so sexy and fries are called chips. You pee in a WC and and drink ale all day long. Yes it is a long run from britain driving tolls to US driving tolls. I guess I just try to keep you honest in your postings since you leave out pertinent details like what FRIGGING country is considering these additional fees.
Yes implant me Brad, I break no laws and that will leve the FBI more time to track the terrorists and dangerous rappers /forums/images/icons/smile.gif running rampant in our country.
BruceZ
11-21-2002, 08:20 PM
I didn't say you'd surely find the best people in one stack or another. You have to be careful about reading and interpreting these statements. I'm talking about what happens when one stack of resumes is artifically biased to include more of particular nationalities, and how to optimally choose a small subset of these candidates given limited time and your knowledge of this sample bias. There's really nothing to prove here. Common sense and my experience make the issue overwhelmingly obvious to everyone who has had to deal with this. But if you want a mathematical proof, how's this:
Assume foreign and American students are equal. The ratio of foreign students a recruiter sees is proportional to that in the student population. If he sets a threshold for which resumes get passed to a hiring mangager, the ratio of foreign students should again be the same as that in the population. But this is not the case; there is a preponderance of foreign resumes. The threshold must have been adjusted downward for the foreign students, so the average foreign student in the stack must be of lower quality. Now if I have to pick resumes at random for interviews, it's obvious which stack I want to pick from. Of course I'm not going to pick at random (though given how much these resumes start to look alike that's not a bad approximation!) but however I screen them, in the end I better be picking more from the American stack (on average) if my process is to be optimal.
Also, given the large number of minorities with communication problems, you'd have a pretty tough time convincing me that they are, on average, equally qualified. That would mean they would have to be much more qualified in all the other areas, and there is no evidence to support that, and even if that were true it still wouldn't make up for this important deficiency.
As for Indians, I managed a group of them in India, and spent quite a bit of time there. The ones I dealt with were fine, intelligent, hard working people, and generally a pleasure to deal with. Their ability to think outside the box was virtually non-existent. I find this to be a problem with the educational systems in a number of the foreign countries I dealt with, and have reason to suspect that it is pervasive.
do u deny scanning cameras are going up in us cities a la britian?
i ccan post a link where u must have gps tracker to pay bridge toll in city in usa. is that sufficient for u 2 acknowledge i mmay have a point?
ripdog
11-22-2002, 05:36 AM
I didn't ask for a mathematical proof, and you sure didn't deliver one there. Why must the threshhold for the foreign students have been adjusted downward? It's not possible that people of a certain nationality are better at, oh, let's say, software engineering than white folks? Did Microsoft intentionally spurn whites and instead hire a disproportionate number of Indians for the sake of a quota? This sounds like Limbaugh logic to me. Oh woe is the poor downtrodden white man. All of your common sense and experience has failed to convince me that you're correct. Why isn't it overwhelmingly obvious to me? Maybe it's the fact that I know so many Indian and Chinese people who don't fall into the category that you describe.
BruceZ
11-22-2002, 06:00 AM
The reason so many Indian software people are hired is because once they are over here they are almost like indentured servants. Once a company sponsors someone for a green card, the person cannot go work for another company for a number of years. The reason so much software if farmed out to India is that they are willing to work for peanuts.
Ryan_21
11-22-2002, 12:15 PM
Ybor City in Tampa, FL has security cameras up and down the strip for a mile or so, and there is a little room somewhere that police officers watch the streets. Pretty disgusting isnt it.
Ryan_21
nicky g
11-22-2002, 04:11 PM
whites had a good few centuries of black slavery to enjoy. they also get more of the money, nicer neighbourhoods, treated fairly at elections, not booted into jail anything like as much, not given the death penalty nearly as much blah blah blah.in return they give a bunch if token crap like a "month" for blacks and the odd scholarship. does it harm anyone? seems like whites get a pretty fair deal.
ripdog
11-22-2002, 06:13 PM
Now you're just talking crazy talk. Indentured servants? Come on! After minimal searching on the web I found that an Indian software developer with two years of experience can make between $55,000 and $65,000. 5 years of experince drive the salary range from $65,000 to as high as $78,000. If the Indian person is an administrator they can make as much as $90,000 a year. I'd say that's pretty good pay for a person who's a borderline servant. I don't know what they're making in India, but they're doing pretty well here.
'they also get more of the money, nicer neighbourhoods,'
im white where do i get this?
how does slavery 150 years ago help me?
my family moved here around 1900, missing black slavery and german jew persecution. so f u. im pure as the driven snow.
my grandfather was union steel worker and father is evil capitalist so ... what the hell is my point anyway?
Now you're just talking crazy talk. Indentured servants? Come on! After minimal searching on the web I found that an Indian software developer with two years of experience can make between $55,000 and $65,000. 5 years of experince drive the salary range from $65,000 to as high as $78,000. If the Indian person is an administrator they can make as much as $90,000 a year. I'd say that's pretty good pay for a person who's a borderline servant. I don't know what they're making in India, but they're doing pretty well here.
You're focusing too much on the "servant" part and not enough on the "indentured". The key is the green card sponsorship. The developer in that situation cannot change jobs without severly damging the processing time of his/her green card.
Also, with two years of experience, a non-immigrant software engineer (so as not to focus on Indians specifically) should be making much more that 55-65K, depending on education and the field in which they are working...minimum 70K, probably more. This cost-savings of 5-15K by the company is possible specifically because they know the employee cannot realistically leave for greener pastures. Note, this is certainly not as much of an option given the current financial climate, but the phenomenon still exists.
also maybe the ad was for someone who already had a green card or whatever, or already living in US or whatever.
when i was getting an apartment one time, lady told me of two indian software guys who lived in apartment with no furniture and no car. hearsay, whatever
BruceZ
11-22-2002, 09:14 PM
Absolutely. I thought I made that clear, but thanks for explaining. I can guarantee from firsthand experience that this is an incentive for many hiring managers. Our computer support group was staffed almost entirely by Indians for this reason, and this is common in many companies. In India, senior software engineers with several years experience might make 20-25K. That's alot over there as the cost of living is also low, but the quality of life is also very low (understatement). An Indian engineer's goal is to be able to buy a house before he retires. Most do not own cars (which aren't practical anyway due to congestion) and drive around on mopeds.
BTW, the picture on the left is Matt Damon. I bring this up in case you mistook me for some kid with no experience in the real world.
Clarkmeister
11-22-2002, 09:55 PM
I think your estimate of the amoung Indian engineers make in India is low. We had over 50 contracted software programmers located in India and we paid $33/hr for them to sit there and code all day.
BruceZ
11-22-2002, 10:46 PM
It isn't an estimate. I was tight with some of them and talked to them, and I know what they make. This had to be done carefully because in general we were advised not to talk to them about salaries lest they might become demoralized by the disparities. They didn't make 66K a year, no way. They'd practically be royalty at that salary. Your situation may be different, but if it was like ours the money you paid didn't go to them, it went to their organization who made some profit, paid for their benefits, etc. It's like someone in this country who makes 60K a year. The company may pay 120K a year for that person once all the benefits are taken into account. Over there they work like contractors, so the house may take an even bigger cut.
I think your estimate of the amoung Indian engineers make in India is low. We had over 50 contracted software programmers located in India and we paid $33/hr for them to sit there and code all day.
You guys overpaid. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif Seriously, though, were these independent contractors? The company I work for subcontracted out to a company in India, and we paid some pretty hefty fees, but no way the programmers themselves made all of that. Consider consultants here in the US...they may bill out at $100/hr, but they don't get paid anywhere near that. I used to have an Indian manager, and we'd discussed him returning home to work in India...he said he would expect to pull down 2000-2500/month for a software engineering gig in India - a little more for project management.
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