PlayerView/GameTime+ Alternative

[PokerAce]

After a lot of discussion regarding the commercialization of PlayerView, a lot of people have come to the same conclusion:

$50 is way too much for this application.

I completely agree. PlayerView was a great free application. However, it just doesn't cut it as a commercial application costing $50.

There's one alternative we have in GameTime+. GameTime+ is too limited for my use. I have decided that I am going to develop an application similar to PlayerView.

I haven't kept up with the problems/suggestions for features for PlayerView or GameTime+, so I'm asking for anyone who is reading this to give me features that you would like to see. I can't promise I will add every feature, but each one will be considered.

I haven't decided if I will charge for this application or not. If I do, it will very likely be $20 or less. If it's not too feature rich, I may release it as freeware.

If nothing else, the competition will force PlayerView to improve to the point where it's worth the $50 pricetag.

Thought? Comments? Discuss.

[DeezNutz3]

Im excited, this should be good.

[kevyk]

Bravo! Stick it to those greedy bastards!

[mungpo]

Two programs enter, one program leaves.

[DeezNutz3]

[ QUOTE ]
Bravo! Stick it to those greedy bastards!

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO to cheap people.

[iluzion]

As for motivation, once trials and/or a decent working version has come out, I will be donating to this effort, as I hope other 2+2ers who think $50 is outrageous will also do.

[Yobz]

One very cool thing in PV that GT+ doesn't have (as far as I can tell) is the hands that people where holding last round (can be read in directly from the HH files). This should be easy to add on and is the only reason I would even consider getting PV over GT+...

[DarkKnight]

What is the over/under on the time that the OP to realize that the amount of work required makes $50 for PV seem like a good deal?

[kevyk]

$20 would be reasonable compensation. $50 is outrageous, especially when Gametime+ is available for free.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
Bravo! Stick it to those greedy bastards!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh give me a [censored] break. You use the term "greedy" like it's a bad thing.

He has a product that people want and are willing to pay money for. It would be silly not to charge money at for it.

Personally, I disagree with the price, but simply because it is not worth $50 to me, I use GT+ anyway. But to suggest that Amir's greed in this matter is a bad thing is absurd. He has every right to extract every damn penny he can from this.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the over/under on the time that the OP to realize that the amount of work required makes $50 for PV seem like a good deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point, hopefully the OP keeps in mind that a decent mid-level software developer makes $40-50 dollars an hour as a consultant. Unless he codes this up in 30 minutes, I see this as a bit -EV.

[kevyk]

I never implied he had no right to charge what he sees fit.

I am disappointed that he'd charge such an exorbitant amount for a product which I find useful, especially when there's a perfectly good free alternative.

You'd be pretty pissed if you drank Coke, then woke up one morning and found out that it cost 50 times more than Pepsi.

[nnoobi]

Suggestions:

Only support one database (PostgreSQL is around the corner).

Access the database through ODBC.

Ideally avoid .Net and Java. C++ is really the best way for this app which has to make so many calls to system dll's.

Do not used a hard-wired query.
(Store it as a textfile that the user could switch in a more complex query.)

At first, do not bother with a overlay designer. Storing the information in an XML textfile would be one way.

Automatically pick-up tables as they exist rather than the manual add of GT+.

Consider an open-source project like SourceForge.net

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
You'd be pretty pissed if you drank Coke, then woke up one morning and found out that it cost 50 times more than Pepsi.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I would not be pissed at all. If the product was worth it, I would pay for it. If it wasn't, I wouldn't pay for it.

[PokerAce]

Okay, it looks like I need to clarify some things.

I'm not doing this to "stick it" to Amir. He has every right to charge anything he pleases. I think the price is unfair. Therefore, I will not pay the price.

Because there are others that feel the same as I do, there's a void now. GameTime+ does not fill this void for me. Therefore, I am using my skills as a software developer to create an alternative.

"What is the over/under on the time that the OP to realize that the amount of work required makes $50 for PV seem like a good deal?"

Yes, if I just wanted the functionality for myself, I would pay the $50. However, I saw that a lot of people were unhappy with the price. Therefore, my application will be used by more than just me. I don't think I can whip up this application in a day or two, it will take some work. However, I think people are overestimating the complexity of such an application.

I'm not really doing this to make a buck. I play poker for a living now and I have ample free time. This gives me a chance to do some development (my previous full time job) as well as creating something that many people can use. If I put enough work and functionality into it that I feel I need to sell it, then so be it.

[theredwave]

I don't exactly get what all this fuss is about, GT+ is out there right now for free and when I originally checked out PV and GT I felt GT was the better option anyway. I don't know exactly what features are missing in GT+ that PV uses other than the showdown cards and I can't imagine many other features that can be added to the program without it creating clutter on the screen. I also agree calling Amir greedy is unbelievable, he has worked on the program for many months now and spent god knows how many hours working on all of the bugs and listening to people's complaints while expecting nothing in return, and now when he tries to get some compensation for his hard work he is called greedy.

[TGoldman]

[ QUOTE ]
One very cool thing in PV that GT+ doesn't have (as far as I can tell) is the hands that people where holding last round (can be read in directly from the HH files). This should be easy to add on and is the only reason I would even consider getting PV over GT+...

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking something like this combined with an odds calculator could lead to a nice "auto-berate" function that would automatically spam the chat box with pre-selected messages anytime the probability of your hand winning from the turn --> river decreased by greater than XX%. That would really save me the time and effort.

[PokerAce]

Only support one database (PostgreSQL is around the corner).

It won't be much more work to support multiple databases. It keeps it backwards compatible with older versions of PT too.


Access the database through ODBC.

That was my plan.


Ideally avoid .Net and Java. C++ is really the best way for this app which has to make so many calls to system dll's.

I am a die-hard C++ developer. Look for low memory usage and blazing speed.


Do not used a hard-wired query.
(Store it as a textfile that the user could switch in a more complex query.)

Did I mention I like things customizable and flexible? This was a given.


At first, do not bother with a overlay designer. Storing the information in an XML textfile would be one way.

This won't be the first thing I work on, but it will make its way in pretty early in development.


Automatically pick-up tables as they exist rather than the manual add of GT+.

One reason I don't like GT+. Count on this feature.


Consider an open-source project like SourceForge.net

If I decide to keep it free, I will go this route. Give me some time to get into the development first.

[kevyk]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You'd be pretty pissed if you drank Coke, then woke up one morning and found out that it cost 50 times more than Pepsi.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No, I would not be pissed at all. If the product was worth it, I would pay for it. If it wasn't, I wouldn't pay for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So being faced with the choice of:

1. Having to pay an exorbitant fee to continue using a product you enjoy

or

2. Having to stop using that product because it just isn't worth the cost

wouldn't piss you off? I have a feeling that it would.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You'd be pretty pissed if you drank Coke, then woke up one morning and found out that it cost 50 times more than Pepsi.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No, I would not be pissed at all. If the product was worth it, I would pay for it. If it wasn't, I wouldn't pay for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So being faced with the choice of:

1. Having to pay an exorbitant fee to continue using a product you enjoy

or

2. Having to stop using that product because it just isn't worth the cost

wouldn't piss you off? I have a feeling that it would.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's capitalism. If you let that piss you off, you're in for a long life of being pissed.

There are plenty of things I'd like to have, but whose price I consider exorbidant. I've come to terms with that.

[nnoobi]

[ QUOTE ]
Only support one database (PostgreSQL is around the corner).

It won't be much more work to support multiple databases. It keeps it backwards compatible with older versions of PT too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think supporting multiple databases may be more trouble than it is worth, especially with a flexible/user-defined query. Perhaps my concerns are easily fixed, but here they are:

If the SQL query calculates PFR multiple queries must be combined weighted by pre-flop observations. If it calculates turn aggression, it must be weighted by turn observations.

If the query doesn't calculate these items, then there needs to be another facility for users to define the calculations.

Good luck with the development.

[ddubois]

Why doesn't the GT+ guy just implement auto-table-add ?

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
Ideally avoid .Net and Java. C++ is really the best way for this app which has to make so many calls to system dll's.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframework/default.aspx?pull=/library/en-us/dndotnet/html/win32map.asp

Get a clue newb.

[ddubois]

Was there supposed to be some point to your link, other than displaying your capability to be rude?

[theredwave]

PM kross and ask him directly, or go to his forums.

[nnoobi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ideally avoid .Net and Java. C++ is really the best way for this app which has to make so many calls to system dll's.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframework/default.aspx?pull=/library/en-us/dndotnet/html/win32map.asp

Get a clue newb.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would have been a better article (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/msdnmag/issues/02/10/cuttingedge/TOC.ASP).

I'll pull out some of the important parts.

[ QUOTE ]
In this column, I'll tackle Windows hooks from the perspective of .NET applications and discuss how to build .NET Framework wrapper classes for them. Before continuing, I should point out that a managed C++ approach would be more straightforward, if your project allows for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The .NET Framework provides no built-in facilities or infrastructure to handle hooks. Right now, hooks are considered merely a special breed of callback functions and their implementation is left to P/Invoke (the .NET Framework infrastructure to call unmanaged APIs residing in the underlying operating system).

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, don't wait for the hooks to be implemented in the .NET Framework. It could take a while because of the nontrivial implications they'd have, due to the architectural changes introduced in the transition from Win32 to the .NET virtual machine.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my reading it seems that you can choose to use hooks in .NET and work hard to overcome the obstacles that nature of .NET puts in your way, or you can do this in C++ more easily.

I imagine if you don't use hooks, it wouldn't be that much of an issue.

[rerazor]

Could you include the ability to "write" whatever you want in the HUD? That was compatability with sites like Prima and UB wouldn't be an issue.

[SinSixer]

This is freaking hilarious. I am also a developer and see the price for PV as quite acceptable. This has been a one man project with an extremely limited market. I would love to know exactly how much time Amir has devoted to PV. After providing support, updates, new feature since last October.. I would be suprised if it was less then a few hundred hours. Selling a thousand thousand copies, to make 50k (pretax) is peanuts, considering the amount of work he will have to put in to keep it up, add new poker room support, deal with PT modifiacations etc etc etc...

Good luck with your imitation. The way I see it, 1 of 3 things will happen:

1) You start work on this a realize how much time and effort it will require and then realize that you will be giving it away and it becomes "vaporware".

2) You scratch out a vastly inferior product with no updates or support and no one cares or uses it.

3) You make a kick ass, superior application that everyone loves and can't live without, and you realize that you deserve to make at least $50k for the amount of time and ingenuity you put into it for the 1000 or so copies you could potentially sell.

[Mr Mojo Risin]

If you are smart you will charge an extremely low price for it. If it is good, and i mean really good (better than gametime, which is free), most people would be more than happy to pay something like $5 for it. I can't imagine any of us not buying something of that quality because of that price. You would get payed for your efforts, and we would get a kick tushy program.
A few suggestions on the program itself:
Make sure it has the hole card function, that is super cool.
Auto detect tables
Make it so that it updates fequently. I hated that PV would only update every 5 mins. But only as long as it doesnt bog down the comp.
A pot odds calculator for those of use who dont have the time to figure it while mulitabling.

[SinSixer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are smart you will charge an extremely low price for it. If it is good, and i mean really good (better than gametime, which is free), most people would be more than happy to pay something like $5 for it

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL what a cheapskate. Are you serious? How big a market do you think there is in this software?

If you sold 1,000 copies which is probably a lot for the small subset of online poker players that would use this application, you make $5,000, and commit yourself to having to help 1,000 incompetent low limt players with support and diotic questions daily, and then keep the cheapskates happy by continously adding new features for free. They expect that because they paid their $5, and should not have to pay for upgrades.

Oh, and dont forget to give Uncle Sam his 25% and Neteller or Paypal their 5% of those $5 transactions. Or you could pay for credit card proccesing and pay Visa 2% plus another 2k in setting up and SSL certs...

Yeah, a $5 program, thats the "smart thing" to do.

[PokerAce]

My reply, also crossposted.

Thank you Nostradamus. Without immitation, there would be no innovation. I'm trying to offer a cheaper alternative. If GameTime+ suited my needs, I'd be using that.

Basically, I plan on writing a simple application that allows the stats from PokerTracker to be displayed on the poker window. It will be pretty cut and dry.

It will likely be released for free. I have other open source projects, so releasing my software for free is not a big deal. I get satisfaction in releasing applications that people find useful. I play poker to pay the bills, and I have ample free time. I'm putting some of that free time to good use now.

If my application catches on and the need for advanced features is there, then I may branch off and create a commercial version. How much I charge depends on how much it does. With equivalent functionality to PlayerView, that would be $20.

[DeezNutz3]

You can makee PV update every minute if you want.

[vipon]

thing i like about GT+ is that it tells you how much your up/down on each table. Maybe have a total for this too. Its easier to glance at when ur multitabling then looking at PT or calculating it urself

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
My reply, also crossposted.

Thank you Nostradamus. Without immitation, there would be no innovation. I'm trying to offer a cheaper alternative. If GameTime+ suited my needs, I'd be using that.

Basically, I plan on writing a simple application that allows the stats from PokerTracker to be displayed on the poker window. It will be pretty cut and dry.

It will likely be released for free. I have other open source projects, so releasing my software for free is not a big deal. I get satisfaction in releasing applications that people find useful. I play poker to pay the bills, and I have ample free time. I'm putting some of that free time to good use now.

If my application catches on and the need for advanced features is there, then I may branch off and create a commercial version. How much I charge depends on how much it does. With equivalent functionality to PlayerView, that would be $20.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great job man, I'll be looking forward to checking it out.

These people have no clue about what they are talking about, let the haters hate, it's -EV for them.

Software of this nature was meant to be free or very (very) inexpensive. People act like they've never downloaded freeware/shareware before...

Did you all download the FREE Kazaa? Or did you PAY????

How about WINAMP??? Paying for that or using the free one????

Fking haters and hypocrites have no clue.

You don't think that Amir, a likely college student, gained experience that will translate to $$ down the road from writing PV??

For most upcoming developers, it is enough...but others get greedy once they actually make something people like.

Others (and eventually more successful ones) typically abondon their first products to freeware...gaining a following and building a reputation...and then release a BETTER...WORKING version for $$$.

How times change.

[SlyGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only support one database (PostgreSQL is around the corner).

It won't be much more work to support multiple databases. It keeps it backwards compatible with older versions of PT too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think supporting multiple databases may be more trouble than it is worth, especially with a flexible/user-defined query. Perhaps my concerns are easily fixed, but here they are:

If the SQL query calculates PFR multiple queries must be combined weighted by pre-flop observations. If it calculates turn aggression, it must be weighted by turn observations.

If the query doesn't calculate these items, then there needs to be another facility for users to define the calculations.

Good luck with the development.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's trivial to support multiple databases as long as you stick to standard SQL. An abstract factory will accomplish this without a ton of effort. You can write the concrete implementations for other DB's as you need them.

[nnoobi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only support one database (PostgreSQL is around the corner).

It won't be much more work to support multiple databases. It keeps it backwards compatible with older versions of PT too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think supporting multiple databases may be more trouble than it is worth, especially with a flexible/user-defined query. Perhaps my concerns are easily fixed, but here they are:

If the SQL query calculates PFR multiple queries must be combined weighted by pre-flop observations. If it calculates turn aggression, it must be weighted by turn observations.

If the query doesn't calculate these items, then there needs to be another facility for users to define the calculations.

Good luck with the development.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's trivial to support multiple databases as long as you stick to standard SQL. An abstract factory will accomplish this without a ton of effort. You can write the concrete implementations for other DB's as you need them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think my original point was poorly made.

You should support multiple database platforms. Using standard SQL and ODBC will go a long way towards that.

You should not bother combining data from multiple databases into one resultset for display onto the screen. This is a feature of PV and missing (I believe) in GT+.

The necessary processing of resultsets to combine them would either eliminate the flexibility of what the user can do or significantly increase the complexity of what the user would have to do.

(My original suggestion list included having the stats available not be pre-defined, but created by a editable SQL statement.)

Of course, do what you want.

[Buckmulligan]

People will come, ray, people will most definitely come.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
PlayerView was a great free application. However, it just doesn't cut it as a commercial application costing $50.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know why you could use it for free? Because we were a bunch of people who donated $ to Amir so he could work on his program when it still wasnt working very well.

Now when its working great, u are prepared to pay $20. Wow!

If any of u whiners in this thread are anywhere near decent pokerplayers you know that Playerview have saved you a lot more then $50.

If any of you were around when "Pokertracker" was still young u will remember that it was a much worse program then today. And with whiners like you it still would be as bad as it was then.

[LuvDemNutz]

I suppose it's debatable whether PV is worth $50 or not but I find it pretty funny that on a forum full of "great" poker players that are supposedly crushing the online games and taking the fish for all they are worth, so many are complaining about a measly 50 bucks.

$50 bucks is [censored]. Just pay it and get back to the tables for crying out loud.

[pokergrader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PlayerView was a great free application. However, it just doesn't cut it as a commercial application costing $50.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know why you could use it for free? Because we were a bunch of people who donated $ to Amir so he could work on his program when it still wasnt working very well.

Now when its working great, u are prepared to pay $20. Wow!

If any of u whiners in this thread are anywhere near decent pokerplayers you know that Playerview have saved you a lot more then $50.

If any of you were around when "Pokertracker" was still young u will remember that it was a much worse program then today. And with whiners like you it still would be as bad as it was then.

[/ QUOTE ]

So to recap your argument: Competition is bad for the consumer.

You may want to rethink that one.

[chrisdhal]

GT+ is now going open source. See the forum (http://www.pokerdominion.com/viewtopic.php?t=278). You may just want to jump on that.

[PokerAce]

I think half of you people understand this and half of you don't.

$50 in and of itself is not a large amount of money to a lot of the higher stakes players. It's not a ton of money for me. It's a ton of money for the .5/1 players, but that's besides the point.

Yes, PlayerView has helped me make money. I four table and it made table selection a lot easier. However, I can simply take a little extra time to look at my exported notes to accomplish the same thing. Same thing during play. If I'm in a pot with a player, I can open up their notes to see what my action should be.

PlayerView doesn't do anything special other than place that info on the screen for easy access. I refuse to pay $50 for that convenience.

Some of you say Amir's hard work is worth $50. Movies and video games cost millions of dollars to make and months or years of work. Should Pixar charge $100 per ticket because their movies take four years and millions of dollars to make, while the latest indie film from Lions Gate took 9 weeks and a couple hundred thousand? No, they both cost the same because despite the individual effort behind each one they both are just two hours of entertainment.

Hundreds of hours may have gone into PlayerView, but it's still just an application that projects stats read from one program onto another program. $20 would be more than fair for such a program.

To change gears for a minute, it was made known that GameTime+ is going open source. I think I'm going to pause development until that is done so that I can see if the GameTime+ source is something I can work with. If it's easy to add the features I (and others) need, I may go that route.

[Derek in NYC]

If you dont think PV is worth it, dont buy it.

I do applaud your development of a free, opensource, PV alternative. Frankly, this will force Amir to innovate his features, improve his code, and invest in customer support. I hope your improvement of the GT+ software makes the current version of PV obsolete, in fact--and I say that as somebody who just paid Amir $50 for his software.

Online poker is about making money, and as with carpentry, I look at software & books as just tools of the trade. I pay whatever the market charges me and I always have best-in-class tools.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
If you dont think PV is worth it, dont buy it.

I do applaud your development of a free, opensource, PV alternative. Frankly, this will force Amir to innovate his features, improve his code, and invest in customer support. I hope your improvement of the GT+ software makes the current version of PV obsolete, in fact--and I say that as somebody who just paid Amir $50 for his software.

Online poker is about making money, and as with carpentry, I look at software & books as just tools of the trade. I pay whatever the market charges me and I always have best-in-class tools.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my point, now when I have calmed down.

My other point is that even if u think $50 is a bit much today - as when I once bought Pokertracker - u are also investing in the future, these guys needs $ to do it better. In 6 months it will probably be worth those $50 even for u only wants to pay $20, so the only difference is that u cant use it for 6 months.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
This is freaking hilarious. I am also a developer and see the price for PV as quite acceptable. This has been a one man project with an extremely limited market. I would love to know exactly how much time Amir has devoted to PV. After providing support, updates, new feature since last October.. I would be suprised if it was less then a few hundred hours. Selling a thousand thousand copies, to make 50k (pretax) is peanuts, considering the amount of work he will have to put in to keep it up, add new poker room support, deal with PT modifiacations etc etc etc...

Good luck with your imitation. The way I see it, 1 of 3 things will happen:

1) You start work on this a realize how much time and effort it will require and then realize that you will be giving it away and it becomes "vaporware".

2) You scratch out a vastly inferior product with no updates or support and no one cares or uses it.

3) You make a kick ass, superior application that everyone loves and can't live without, and you realize that you deserve to make at least $50k for the amount of time and ingenuity you put into it for the 1000 or so copies you could potentially sell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm also a software engineer and you are one of the few people in any of these PV whiner threads that has a clue. I agree with everything you said.

Good post.

OP - I wish you luck man. No sarcasm intended.

KoW

[oreogod]

Actually the developer of GT+ just announced that he is going open source with his program. He wants people to have a free alternative to PV. Hes going to post the OS this weekend.

True GT+ is limited, but I dont think its going to be that way for much longer.

www.pokerdominion.com (http://www.pokerdominion.com) for details.

[MiguelSanchez]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose it's debatable whether PV is worth $50 or not but I find it pretty funny that on a forum full of "great" poker players that are supposedly crushing the online games and taking the fish for all they are worth, so many are complaining about a measly 50 bucks.

$50 bucks is [censored]. Just pay it and get back to the tables for crying out loud.

[/ QUOTE ]

$50 is still $50, regardless of how badly you are crushing online poker.

I'm a financially struggling medical student who is in an enormous amount of debt; want to send me some [censored]?

[SinSixer]

[ QUOTE ]
so many are complaining about a measly 50 bucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually most people said they would pay 15-20 bucks for it, so they are actually crying over $30. LOL.

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually the developer of GT+ just announced that he is going open source with his program. He wants people to have a free alternative to PV. Hes going to post the OS this weekend.

True GT+ is limited, but I dont think its going to be that way for much longer.

www.pokerdominion.com (http://www.pokerdominion.com) for details.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I assume the OP will support this open source effort rather than start from scratch.

[excession]

Well it's Linux vs Windows then - but this time Windows doesn't have as much of a head start (auto-importing tables and a muck-grabber will be the first thing on the GT+ to do list I suspect)

[MarkL444]

My 2 cents:

Amir (i think thats his name) put a lot of work into playerview so that we could all benefit from it. At first, there were donators so he was getting some money, but I think once the few generous people donated, he wasnt going to see any more. I do think he should charge for playerview, but his price is absurd. I dont see why he didnt do $25 or so, i think pretty much everyone here that used it would have paid him, which would have been a couple hundred people im guessing. Terrible decision to do $50.

[sthief09]

you people are [censored] retarded if you don't think PV is worth $50

and I highly doubt you're capable of making a program that I'd prefer over PV for $50, or $1000. I'm not settling for cheap alternatives when it comes to this. for $50, which is less than a half hour's work for a lot of players, it's well worth the money

and after all the work Amir put into PV, you really think you'll be able to make something as good?

I also find it funny that every poster I've seen post before (ie people that I know know what they're talking about) have said you're all [censored] morons for bitching about 50 [censored] bucks


I mean, what the [censored]?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Bravo! Stick it to those greedy bastards!

[/ QUOTE ]


greedy? where do you people come from?

[pokergrader]

[ QUOTE ]
you people are [censored] retarded if you don't think PV is worth $50

and I highly doubt you're capable of making a program that I'd prefer over PV for $50, or $1000. I'm not settling for cheap alternatives when it comes to this. for $50, which is less than a half hour's work for a lot of players, it's well worth the money

and after all the work Amir put into PV, you really think you'll be able to make something as good?

I also find it funny that every poster I've seen post before (ie people that I know know what they're talking about) have said you're all [censored] morons for bitching about 50 [censored] bucks


I mean, what the [censored]?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if it is worth $50 to you, then fine. But dont get angry at people for having opinions. When the guy came up with the price, im sure he reasoned it out and decided that he could get at least half as many people who would pay $50 than the number of people that would pay $25. The guy knew when he was pricing it that not as many people would buy it. He obviously didn't expect every single person that would pay $25 would also pay $50, so im sure he isn't mad at them for not wanted to pay. And if he can't be mad at them, then there is no good reason you can be.

[sthief09]

I'm angry at those who are bad-mouthing Amir, who has put so much time and effort into designing this program. I mean, how could you call the kid greedy? he has done nothing but work and help (including individual help for tons of people), and now these people about btiching about FIFTY FCUKING DOLLARS. he's not the greedy one. the people who want something for nothing are the greedy fucks

[PokerAce]

I have never bad mouthed Amir. I know he's put in a tremendous amount of work on PlayerView, and he's free to price it however he wants. He likely priced it so high due to his affiliate agreement, but that's beside the point.

I don't know why you doubt that I can create an application to rival PlayerView. I've been programming since I was 12 years old. I did it professionaly for 6 years working on multimillion dollar software. Developing software is certainly one thing I can do well.

What functionality does PlayerView offer that is so wonderful to be worth $50? It reads from PokerTracker's database and prints it onto the Poker window. That's basically all it does. I'm not saying it doesn't do it well, because it does. Just please don't say it's some huge complicated piece of software. I can get the same information PlayerView gives me by opening my player notes. I can't duplicate the functionality that PokerTracker gives me.

No, $50 isn't a lot of money to me. I gladly shelled out $55 for PokerTracker. PokerTracker is an extremely complicated, feature rich application, well worth the cost. PlayerView is not. That's what this boils down to. I'm not greedy, nor am I cheap. I do, however, believe that people need an alternative to PlayerView. Some of us believe in paying what something is worth, and a lot of us don't feel PlayerView is worth $50.

[DeezNutz3]

I would guess that PV is more technically complicated code than is PT.

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm angry at those who are bad-mouthing Amir, who has put so much time and effort into designing this program. I mean, how could you call the kid greedy?

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is, ladies and gentleman, greed is good. Greed works, greed is right. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed in all its forms, greed for life, money, love, knowledge has marked the upward surge in mankind – and greed, mark my words – will save not only Teldar Paper but the other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

[PokerAce]

What makes you think PlayerView is more complicated than PokerTracker?

[TheNoodleMan]

I'd like to be able to use it for SnG's., thats the main thing missing from GT+, IMO

[MiguelSanchez]

[ QUOTE ]
I would guess that PV is more technically complicated code than is PT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something technically complicated can take much less time and effort to make than something simple yet full-featured. Sure, it might be technically more difficult to manipulate graphics than it is to manipulate databases, but the organization, planning, and tedious busywork of parsing hand histories is really a bitch and requires a lot more time.

I have no doubt that Amir has spent hundreds of hours working on PV, and he has every right to charge $50. That's not being greedy, and probably smart since if anyone is going to pay for it when GT+ is free, they'll probably be willing to pay $50 as much as they are willing to pay $20. His customer group is higher stakes players who don't view $50 as actual money, rather just 5 BBs (which, if played well, I suppose would quickly turn into 10 BBs...and so on).

Anyway, in terms of features for your software PokerAce, I would suggest that the main thing is stability. Also, the ability to display your own variables based on SQL calls once PT comes out would be great.

[PokerAce]

So you think it would take less time to write a replacement for PokerTracker than it would PlayerView?

I think you guys are grossly underestimating the complications involved with software such as PokerTracker, and grossly overestimating the work required for an application like PlayerView.

Hand History parsing? I wrote a PartyPoker hand history parser in three hours. I wrote a PokerStars hand history parser in about the same. Of course, this was in PowerBuilder, but translating the same code to C++ won't be hard. I already have code to find all the open poker windows. I have the SQL statements to find all the stats for each player. I have the code to print text on the poker windows. All this stuff is easy. The hard part is figuring out how I want to present the interface, but even that isn't that tough.

I'm hoping to have a working demo by this time next Friday, if not sooner.

[sthief09]

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the people telling you to take down the greedy machine.

[_And1_]

GT+ is now going open source, so now you can just make your contribution with the features you'd like...