Another big AKs hand

[DrPublo]

PP 100 NL. I've got $250, SB has about $215 and MP has about $180...so everyone is very deep. The past orbit I've been clobbered over the head with the deck, so I've been raising just about every other hand. I made a nice bluff c/r all in a few hands earlier on the turn to take down a big pot uncontested (TPTK + nut flush draw against a LAG). Thus my image might be a big laggy to the rest of the table, but the two villains have been sitting with me for awhile.

Two folds, MP raises to $4, I make it $10 with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Folded to the SB who cold calls. All others drop.

Flop ~$30. 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

SB leads for $5, MP calls, Hero?

All comments welcome.

The Doc

[utrnbmp3]

haha, $5.
raise him $5 more. just joking

raise $25

[Yeknom58]

Call, the small bet stinks of weak lead.

[Garland]

Reads reads reads (specifically SB). Need to know what SB's $5 means. MP's call means nothing, and you need to determine if you can take the pot from both of them on the flop with a big raise. If SB is capable of making a weak lead hoping for a raise so he can reraise (rare at lower limits, but I've seen it), then you need to simply call so you can't be blown out of the water by a re-raise. You're obviously getting odds to at least call.

Garland

[NYCNative]

Big reraise to defiene your hand. He probably folds. If he goes over the top, you have outs to spare.

[Jazza]

if you all had 100BB stacks i would say raise to about 30 total and if raised go all in, but i'm not sure about this deepish stack situation

calling and raising are both +EV i'm sure, but without a read i might just call here

[PinkSteel]

Raise to $30. Give your opponents a chance to put you on an overpair so you can get paid if you hit your flush.

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise to $30. Give your opponents a chance to put you on an overpair so you can get paid if you hit your flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting thought. A raise also might buy me a free river in case I miss the turn.

The Doc

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
Big reraise to defiene your hand. He probably folds. If he goes over the top, you have outs to spare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do I want to define my hand? The fact that I have the nut draw is likely hidden from my oppponents, as how often do you put the preflop aggressor on the nut flush draw vs just an overpair? (i.e., I need to have exactly one hand to have the draw).

Isn't this a situation where I'm a slight favorite (against one pair hands that don't have me reverse dominated) or a big dog (to a set)?

The Doc

[DrPublo]

I agree that with 100BB stacks this hand is best played by trying to get all in on the flop. But here, I can make a solid raise, and get reraised a BUNCH and be very uncomfortable about my hand.

Small favorite/big dog?

The Doc

[Ghazban]

This deep, you need reads to determine the best play. Its great that you've given their potential reads on you but what are your reads on them? I would probably raise, though (making it $35 straight) and reevaluate if someone came over the top. Against tricky players who could weak-lead-reraise without a set, calling and taking the cheap turn avoids a potentially difficult decision.

[teamdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do I want to define my hand? The fact that I have the nut draw is likely hidden from my oppponents, as how often do you put the preflop aggressor on the nut flush draw vs just an overpair? (i.e., I need to have exactly one hand to have the draw).

[/ QUOTE ]

from the villain's point of view, what is the range of hands the preflop aggressor will simply call with here? I also like raising to about 30, to disguise a flush if it hits and possibly buy a cheap river card.

[fathertime]

You know that the $5 lead means one of these

1. cheap steal
2. draw
3. monster
4. weak hand

In any of these cases I think a raise is standard play. If he comes over the top, then you need a read.

[fuzzbox]

Besides those four hand-types that you mention .... what other types are there ?

I think you are saying that the weak-lead means ......nothing.


I say call - you would love it it somebody else is in with a flush draw - and it hits. If you raise, you might take out your ATM.
If he is weak - then he plays weak at the turn too. If he is strong (like with a set) then a flush might peel off, and he might pay you off anyway.

Take a turn for cheap say I. You have position - so you can semi-bluff a checked-turn. Or you can call another weak bet. You might even be able to call a strong bet - if the 2nd guy also calls (giving you good pot odds and pretty good implied odds).

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
This deep, you need reads to determine the best play. Its great that you've given their potential reads on you but what are your reads on them? I would probably raise, though (making it $35 straight) and reevaluate if someone came over the top. Against tricky players who could weak-lead-reraise without a set, calling and taking the cheap turn avoids a potentially difficult decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

My reads: SB seems pretty straightforward, haven't seen him get out of line. Numbers to match. MP is loose/fishy with numbers approaching 55/15 or something.

I'm more concerned about the preflop cold call of the $10 by the SB and then the weak lead.

The Doc

[Ghazban]

With those reads, I definitely like raising. If SB comes over the top, that'll be a set close to 100% of the time and you should fold (unless its some kind of weenie minraise, then you should call and see the turn). I don't expect MP will wake up and reraise (loose/fishy types seldom do in this sort of situation).

If you pair on the turn, I'd check it through and call any reasonable bet on the river that doesn't make your flush. I'm not sure this is optimal but you don't want to lose your stack to MP's KT/AT or to SB's flopped set. Checking the turn even when you improve keeps the pot small and you're clearly in a way ahead/way behind situation and can't call a big checkraise.

If you make the flush on the turn, definitely bet/raise as you don't want to give two pair or a set cheap/free looks at the river. If you make it on the river (assuming the board doesn't pair), value bet as much as you think you can get. If they're both still around, about 1/3-1/2 pot might get them both to call; if its heads up, you could bet more hoping to be read as bluffing the scare card.

How's that line sound?

[DrPublo]

The problem was that my hand is strong but not really strong enough to call a check raise, at least not for 200BB. So I called.

Turn ~$45. [2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to me. I bet $30. SB folds, MP calls.

River ~$105. [2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

MP checks, with about $130 left. I have him covered. Hero?

All comments welcome.

The Doc

[Ghazban]

MP is the loose/fishy guy right? I'm having a hard time coming up with a hand he could have that he'd call a bet with that you can beat. From the PT numbers, it looks like he'd raise QQ/JJ/AT, that would call a value bet here. I'm sure its not optimal, but I think I'd check it through /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I hate that line.... curious as to what others will recommend

[fathertime]

read Ghazban's posts. I like what he says.

[DrPublo]

I think I run into the too-deep-to-welcome-a-raise problem. I can bet $50, but I wouldn't be happy about calling a c/r to $150 or whatever. But a set would play it faster, right?

Anyway, I checked it through and he showed ATo.

I think he would have called about $40. Oh well.

The Doc

[joewatch]

I think you played it fine, except that you obviously realized that you missed a value bet on the end. $20-40 sounds about right. Very few players bluff check-raise the river, so this is a +EV play.

[JaBlue]

You need to value bet this. 50$ seems about right. Generally weak loose small stakes fish do not check-raise rivers.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to value bet this. 50$ seems about right. Generally weak loose small stakes fish do not check-raise rivers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many of them do when the flush they were afraid of hits on the turn and they fill up on the river.

[TheWorstPlayer]

SB sucks. Hero plays goot.

[Bukem_]

YOu have to value bet that river. Thinking a loose fish who has bet a total of 5 bucks throughout this hand has a boat is seeing monsters.

Especially given your image.

[Matt Flynn]

you do not want to be all in here. you want a lesser flush draw to come along.

i vary my play here. sometimes i call. if calling, fire on the turn if checked to and in high-level games - especially shorthanded - you can raise him on the turn even when you missed when he bets. however, he has to fold a high percentage of the time to make it worthwhile, so if he won't you just lay down on the turn if he bets big (unless, of course, he will pay you off big-time when the flush hits). in high-stakes games with better players, he will be aware that play puts him to a stack or near-stack decision, and that's why it works.

also perfectly fine to raise the flop. why to $30? seems raising to $25 would give you all the good options and still get him to fold if he'll fold for $30.

one cardinal rule of betting in no limit: when bluffing or semibluffing, bet the smallest amount that will get the fold done. your games may be loose enough that that's a pot-sized bet though.

matt