POLL: Blind Stealing Strategy

[tminus]

Ive recently put alot of thought into blind stealing and have experimented with a few approaches. Most recently a friend suggested I become really aggresive at the higher levels on the button when folded to me, here's an example:

-'poker1929' is Semitight/aggressive.
-'topcop128' is tight passive folding to most raises.
-my table image is tight aggressive, either folding or raising and only showing monster hands

NL Hold'em $5 Buy-in + $1
Level:5 Blinds(100/200)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: warthog999 ( $330 )
Seat 5: chicagomike ( $1280 )
Seat 10: FinancialEco ( $1945 )
Seat 9: poker1929 ( $1540 )
Seat 8: topcop128 ( $840 )
Seat 7: Tminus ( $2065 )
Trny:11860459 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Tminus9 [ Qc 7s ]
FinancialEco folds.
warthog999 folds.
chicagomike folds.
Tminus raises [600].
topcop128 folds.
poker1929 raises [800].
Your time bank will become active in less than 20 seconds. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
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Here are my thoughts at this point:
1) Topcop would definetly fold so i knew that i would end up HU if called.

2) The small reraise preflop suggested to me that he had something worth raising with but not a monster or we would have gone all in with blinds so high. This was my first attempt at testing him so I should definatly follow through. Folding to his preflop reraise would have been foolish with a pot that big that I was so invested in already and I may be able to bully him out on the flop going all in.
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Tminus calls [400].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5d, Jc, 5s ]
poker1929 is all-In [540]
-----------------------------------
Here are my thoughts at this point:
1) I am pot committed, he may be bluffing, and it would destroy my table image to back down.
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Tminus calls [540]

[Degen]

It depends.

Andre
P.S. Push evertime its folded to you and you should be alright. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[lastchance]

SB and BB have both less than 8x BB. Push preflop.

[nWirb]

I don't like the way this hand was played.
Either raise 450-500 and fold to a reraise or push preflop.

[JP Rocks]

If I had gotten into that position on the flop, I would have folded to that bet. You would still have 1000 chips, as opposed to <500 if you lost, which is a huge difference. Also, you are assuming that he is gonna beat you with a monster to preserve your table image, not with a middle PP he may well have. Trying to cultivate a good table image at a $5+1 is kind of like putting on an Opera at a trailer park- I think you are giving your opponents way too much credit.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
-my table image is tight aggressive, either folding or raising and only showing monster hands

NL Hold'em $5 Buy-in + $1

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see the irony of your image statement?

[TStokes]

i agree with everyone else if I was gonna steal I would just push here

[DasLeben]

I insta-poosh preflop. Punish those smallies. (Disclaimer: been drinking).

[Ryendal]

No, no and no.

[Nicok7]

PREFLOP
This is 5+1$ guys, the fold equity isn't great, the button only has 5 BB (wich is still enough to hurt hero), the SB has a big stack, and hero has enough chips to wait for a better spot. While I don't think stealing is bad here, it is a tricky situation with a marginal hand.

If you push, and the SB calls you, you are in big trouble. If you only raise 3BB, you might loose a big portion of your stack to a resteal from SB, or be commited for half your chips against BB.
If you raise just enough to cover BB and maximize fold equity, you are getting too commited against SB

Personally depending on the read on the opponents I would either fold or raise 2.5BB wich gives me a chance of stealing without risking to many chips yet.

THE RERAISE
A min reraise by a good player here always means trouble, he wants you to call him, with blinds so big, that is scary.
And then again the proportion of terrible players that do not understand the concept of fold equity means it could just be a bad attempt at a resteal.
It could also be a very clever attempt at regaining the initiative to make a push and go convincing, put I believe if SB mastered these concepts he would probably not play the 5$.

Either way the call is obious for 200 chips you have no choice put to stay in the pot, and often enough the flop will be very nice to you, say Q7A rainbow /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

FLOP
Given the analysis that SB is either slowplaying a monster or weak, when he pushes for all his chips you've got a give him credit for something good. I would only play 2 pairs or above given your hand (even if your queen had hit you're very likely to be behind IMO, especially given your read on the player).

[DasLeben]

(Sober now)

Seriously, I don't insta-push preflop with these blinds. Assuming SB is willing to go to war with some speculative hands (maybe any PP, A2+, KT+) and BB will play bigger PPs (88+) or any big ace, I think this is at best a marginal push (but probably still +EV).

Now, stick the blinds up to 150/300+, and a push from the button becomes more correct (assuming those calling ranges).

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]

Either way the call is obious for 200 chips you have no choice put to stay in the pot, and often enough the flop will be very nice to you, say Q7A rainbow

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
FLOP
Given the analysis that SB is either slowplaying a monster or weak, when he pushes for all his chips you've got a give him credit for something good. I would only play 2 pairs or above given your hand (even if your queen had hit you're very likely to be behind IMO, especially given your read on the player).

[/ QUOTE ]

These two thoughts contradict each other.

[pooh74]

??

no,
yes
yes

question 2 and 3 depend on you having made that move in 1 already...once you make that move (raise PF) you are committed...done, over...if you fold to his reraise, you are a fool. 1700 in the pot and you fold for another 400?!?!?!

I am floored.

[tminus]

he was holding AA
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thanks everyone for replying...its so helpful
i can see that i should have folded to the flop bet
i find that stealing and bluffing puts me into this paranoid state where i think a reraise from foe equates to a resteal..

although im still undecided on whether i should have opened preflop to begin with. This is the paradox for me with stealing, by principle I should be able to do it with any two cards. This has worked approx 60% of the time but then theres hands like this where I end up in sticky situtations.

[DownLow]

[ QUOTE ]

Here are my thoughts at this point:
1) Topcop would definetly fold so i knew that i would end up HU if called.


[/ QUOTE ]
Unless he wakes up with a monster. However, if this type of player has a hand they will usually let you know.
[ QUOTE ]

2) The small reraise preflop suggested to me that he had something worth raising with but not a monster or we would have gone all in with blinds so high.


[/ QUOTE ]
First bad assumption. Players with monsters WANT action. They don't want to scare aggressive players with big stacks out of the pot.
[ QUOTE ]

This was my first attempt at testing him so I should definatly follow through.


[/ QUOTE ]
Stealing with marginal hands often means NOT following through.
[ QUOTE ]

Folding to his preflop reraise would have been foolish with a pot that big that I was so invested in already and I may be able to bully him out on the flop going all in.


[/ QUOTE ]
Only if it is checked to you, you are in position.
[ QUOTE ]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 5d, Jc, 5s ]
poker1929 is all-In [540]
-----------------------------------
Here are my thoughts at this point:
1) I am pot committed, he may be bluffing, and it would destroy my table image to back down.
----------------------------------
Tminus calls [540]

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

-my table image is tight aggressive, either folding or raising and only showing monster hands


[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing destroys a "tight aggressive" table image like showing down weak ass hands. You can't possibly think your queen high is good here. Put yourself in the BB's shoes. What kind of hands do you play like this from the BB? You you normally try to minraise tight-aggressive players (putting in 2/3 of your stack) then push the last 1/3 of your stack on the flop? What kind of hands would you have to be holding to make such a move? I know there are a lot of stupid players in the 5's but they can't be THAT stupid. He is the one pot-commited on the flop, not you. Your hand is no good, get away from it. You may need runner-runner outs or could be drawing dead.

[Pokerscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Either way the call is obious for 200 chips you have no choice put to stay in the pot, and often enough the flop will be very nice to you, say Q7A rainbow

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
FLOP
Given the analysis that SB is either slowplaying a monster or weak, when he pushes for all his chips you've got a give him credit for something good. I would only play 2 pairs or above given your hand (even if your queen had hit you're very likely to be behind IMO, especially given your read on the player).

[/ QUOTE ]

These two thoughts contradict each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I read them they do not contradict. The 'no choice to stay in the pot' refers to making the 200 bet pre-flop given the pot odds versus the odds your hand will improve.

Calling the bet post flop after seeing 3 blanks is another matter all together.

Pokerscott

[tminus]

here's another example:

Dealt to Tminus [ 7d As ]
adidas_slut folds.
suknats folds.
MrWeinerDog folds.
oOflipflopOo calls [50].
Tminus9 raises [100].
Guisppie folds.
oOflipflopOo calls [75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, 8s, 7c ]

foe is tight/smart, check raising, etc.
how would you handle the flop

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Either way the call is obious for 200 chips you have no choice put to stay in the pot, and often enough the flop will be very nice to you, say Q7A rainbow

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
FLOP
Given the analysis that SB is either slowplaying a monster or weak, when he pushes for all his chips you've got a give him credit for something good. I would only play 2 pairs or above given your hand (even if your queen had hit you're very likely to be behind IMO, especially given your read on the player).

[/ QUOTE ]

These two thoughts contradict each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I read them they do not contradict. The 'no choice to stay in the pot' refers to making the 200 bet pre-flop given the pot odds versus the odds your hand will improve.

Calling the bet post flop after seeing 3 blanks is another matter all together.

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you only plan on continuing if you flop two-pair or better, you are not getting anywhere close to the odds you need preflop.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
here's another example:

Dealt to Tminus [ 7d As ]
adidas_slut folds.
suknats folds.
MrWeinerDog folds.
oOflipflopOo calls [50].
Tminus9 raises [100].
Guisppie folds.
oOflipflopOo calls [75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, 8s, 7c ]

foe is tight/smart, check raising, etc.
how would you handle the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the minraise preflop as it accomplishes nothing but putting more money in the pot out of position. As for the flop, bet as if you have the best hand becasue you likely do. Without stack sizes, I can't really say anymore than that.