2-pair on a 3-flush flop... 30+3 what to do here?

[syphlix]

i bet the pot on the flop to try and discourage any flush draws... was planning on check-folding if there were calls and another diamond came on the turn...

i thought about betting the pot again on the turn... but decided that betting half my stack then folding if a diamond came on the board was pretty crappy...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">MP3 (t950)</font>
CO (t710)
Button (t950)
SB (t595)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t770)</font>
UTG (t995)
UTG+1 (t770)
MP1 (t770)
MP2 (t1490)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t90) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t90</font>, MP3 calls t90, SB folds.

Turn: (t270) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="red"> Hero bets 650 (All-In) </font>

[syphlix]

bump since i'm looking for some replies...

[jacks321]

A lot of players won't fold any kind of flush draw. It's possible he already has it, but I think the times he calls you as a big underdog going to the river make up for the times he already has a made flush. I likely play this the same way.

Edit: Did you have a read on villian at this point? Aside from the LAGgy players, I see a lot of uber-passives who will call the whole way with the nuts, never raising and making very small bets. Against someone like this, I would probably bet about 1/3 of the pot on the turn and try to get a cheap showdown.

[hummusx]

Here's my thought - on a Party 30, there's a reasonable chance that someone holding the A or K is going to call your all-in. You're happy about that right, because it's a huge mistake. But if it hits, your still out because you probably can't chase them out. If they have 2 diamonds they are calling. If they have anything other than the flush or trips, they are folding to your all-in. So I think you chased out a) some draws and b) second best hands.

I think this is one of those cases where I take another shot on the turn. It's early, you can play back from 400 if you have to. I'd bet 200 on the turn and cross my fingers. The person with A or K is still calling, and if a 4th diamond hits on the river you can fold this easily. A made flush may just call, or may raise. Trips is coming along no matter what you do, probably. The key is that with a bet of 200 you are going to bring along some of those second best hands. So in this case I think chase out a) fewer draws and b) fewer second best hands.

The river is tricky again assuming a diamond doesn't come and you don't make a boat. I'd most likely just check and hope the person doesn't bluff.

[hummusx]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably bet about 1/3 of the pot on the turn and try to get a cheap showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you bet 1/3 of the pot, they are correct to call with a single diamond.

[jacks321]

Posting at work = bad advice. I meant 2/3.

[Matt Walker]

On this board, I'd prob try to check raise the middle position guy on the flop with a huge bet. If he doesn't bet the flop I'll lead out more than the pot on the turn. I think they way you played it might be a little too agressive in that most hands that call you likely have you beaten.

[syphlix]

hrmm.. very tough hand... at least i think so... being OOP really sucks in cases like this...

i'm definitely betting the same or similar on the flop... with only 2 ppl in w/ me... i'm not taking the chance that a free turn is gonna come...

against' crappy players... if they have A or K diamonds... no ones folding... though agains't good players theres a great chance they're gonna fold that... and i think it's worth 90 to make sure they fold...

on the turn... i guess mebbe the best line is to bet 180 (leaving me w/ 470)... and hoping he folds...

but if he calls... then on river i chk/fold no matter what right?... (that's what i hate... when i check on river that's basically begging for a bet no matter what he has... guess can pray for someone who missed and is really really passive)...

if he raises me all-in on turn... then i'm out...

sound about right?

[nokona13]

This is something I'm just learning to impelement, and I think it's super super important. It's easy to just think, "push, they won't call, my pot". But you should think every time you put money in the middle, "is there any way this bet is going to cause someone to make a mistake?" You want to either get people who shouldn't come along to call, or people who should be coming along to fold. Especially on party, the second kind of mistake is extremely rare except in the smallest pots, or if you've got a particular read that someone isn't a monkey and will lay down a decent hand. So you want to think before every bet whether any worse hands will call. I've found this is toughest with TPTK and two pair hands. It's easy to bet really strong and scare off other top pairs, or two pair with a tight player. But that bet's scaring off say the overcards or middle pair or draw guy who'd make a mistake and call a non-pot/overbet, and is just giving more money to those people who have trips/flush/straight.

Anyway, this is long and everyone else probably already does this automatically, but it's really been helping me to think about it explicitly when I (not too often of course!) actually have to play a bit post-flop.

[AliasMrJones]

I used to routinely make ~pot-size bets when draws were on the board on flop and turn, but rarely do any more. I'd probably make something betweeen 1/2 and 2/3 pot bet on the flop and then again on the turn assuming no diamond hits (and I don't think the player is a tight, strong player that would fold a flush draw without proper pot odds). Making a somewhat smaller flop bet allows you to make a larger bet in relation to the pot size with a smaller absolute bet on the turn. You want to bet enough to make it a mistake to call, but not to drive out everything but the made flush hand.

Say you bet 60 into the 90 pot. The pot is now laying 2.5:1 to the flush draw. On the turn with 1 caller the pot will be 210 and you bet something like 120-150 if no diamond hits. You're still not giving sufficient odds for the flush draw to call, but you're also not putting as much of your stack at risk this early in the tourney. Say you get re-raised on the turn (likely with the made flush), you've still got &gt;500 in chips and are hurting, but by no means in desparation mode with 15/30 blinds.

Something else to consider is if you make pot-size bets with TPTK or 2-pair type hands that are trying to protect against the draw and less-than-pot bets with draws, you're giving away waaaaay too much information. Your draw bets, TPTK bets and continuation bets have to look similar or players will pick up on that and you'll start having people raise you with nothing when they see the "draw" or "continuation" size bets. If you make pot-size bets with draws or as bluffs, you're making it harder on yourself to make money with them as you are giving yourself worse pot odds if you are called.

In short, you need to find a flop bet size that will work in a variety of situations. Perhaps a little more when protecting and a little less in a speculative situation, but you need to make them close enough and vary the bet size enough that it isn't obvious what kind of bet it is by the size of the bet.